Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
April 19, 2014, 05:49:42 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Nuc bees or package bees?  (Read 3928 times)
krb7694
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9

Location: NE Mississippi


« on: September 29, 2006, 11:41:00 PM »

I'm sure this question has been asked on here many times. I am new here so I do not know the answer. I am reading, "Beekeeping for Dummies." The author says that package bees are the best way to go because they are easier to handle for a new beekeeper. Also, alot of the apiaries are putting on there websites that nucs are the best way too. I do not know if this is a sale tactic to get more money or what. What do you guys think?

By the way, I think I have my wife convinced to let me give beekeeping a try! But not in our backyard. She said I could do it at our family's 400 acre plot of land out in the country. So I am pleased!
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2006, 09:15:36 AM »

Both nucs and packages do well.  Assuming equal amounts of bees between a nuc and a package, which a strong nuc should have, a nuc will have about a month's head start because they have five frames of drawn comb and all stages of brood.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2006, 10:45:15 AM »

I concur.  If you want to get off to a running start begin with a nuc, if you want to begin at a walk go with the packages.  
Although nucs puts you 4-6 weeks ahead of a package from the git-go there is 2 down sides: Higher costs and shipping fees and possibly having a nuc with deep frames when you intended to run all mediums.  
Personally I think the packages are a better choice for the beginning beekeeper because they get to watch the bees build their home from the foundation up (meaning they learn more), lower costs, they can more easily be put in the type of equipment the beekeeper intends to use, and less likelyhood the queen may be killed in transit.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Zoot
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 466

Location: Dickerson, MD


« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 01:05:08 PM »

Would you gentlemen agree that a nuc will generally supercede their queen in the spring less often? I am hearing more and more of packages (my own included) where the queens are immediately superceded upon being hived. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily. The educational value of managing that situation (supercedure)is certainly valuable when starting out. My superceded hive actually had to requeened again in August but it is now strong and prepared for winter.
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 01:28:35 PM »

Quote
Would you gentlemen agree that a nuc will generally supercede their queen in the spring less often? I am hearing more and more of packages (my own included) where the queens are immediately superceded upon being hived. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily. The educational value of managing that situation (supercedure)is certainly valuable when starting out. My superceded hive actually had to requeened again in August but it is now strong and prepared for winter


do you think some of the problems with the package queens is the way they are being introduced into the hive?  i have talked to a few of the new folks that were in my class.  most did well, but a few lost their queens.  i'm not sure how everyone did it, but seems most had the queen loose in the hive within 24 hours.  it took me almost 3 days to turn mine loose.  wonder if that makes a difference?
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mici
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1502


Location: Zagradec, Grosuple, Lower Carniola, Slovenia

tougher than rock


WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 02:05:21 PM »

could the reason be the lack of young bees-nurse bees??? i don't know how this-bee package looks like, but god knows how long it waits for it's buyer.

supercede-the event when the old queen knows she's old and useless and lays into queen cells, usually in fall, am  i correct??
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 02:36:51 PM »

I think the supercedre problems are recent and due to chemicals making inferior queens mated with inferior drones.  I know of several of the scientists are saying the same.  Nacy Ostiguy spoke about the high supercedure rate at the Kansas Honey Producers meeting this last Spring.

http://www.ento.psu.edu/Personnel/Faculty/ostiguy.htm
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2006, 09:18:25 PM »

Again I must concur with MB.  Chemical treatments are doing to the bees what we think might happen to mankind from nuclear fallout or what has happened in a region of russia post Chernobyl.  I cannot imphasize using natural methods enough.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
BEE C
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 329


Location: British Columbia, Canada


« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2006, 03:59:10 AM »

Mr Bray and Mr Bush,
I know I have posted in on this topic before but...as a newbie beekeeper, what or how do you recommend I go natural in beekeeping.  I like the idea of using no chemicals if possible, but my mentor disagrees about this as a basic practice.  I've read discussions of small cell, which I don't think I am ready to try yet, and I recently put a screened bottom board on one hive with a sticky board under it, what other natural options do I have?  Is a screened bottom board the same function as a slatted rack?  Day two into my apistan/formic acid treatment I found around a hundred varroa mites on the sticky board!  That was only a few hours after putting on the screened bottom board...Is there something else to deal with varroa that is natural?  I did a sugar shake last week before the sticky bb was on so I don't know how effective that was.  Is it only small cell and screened bottom boards that you use to keep mites at bay, and ventilation to control other disease?  Is there something else I missed here?  My mentor says this many mites indicates a problem if not dealt with, so I treat until november when outside flight stops...I know you have both mentioned in previous posts that you used oxalic acid in the past, do you still? Do you consider it natural or just a step in transition to what you do now? or something to use if mite levels get too high?
Logged
ian michael davison
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 97

Location: lightwater surrey UK


« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2006, 06:06:07 AM »

Hi all

BeeC: Try the Thymol and Acids as an alternative. They do not leave build ups in the wax and the mites can not build up a tollerance to them.
Poor queens have also been a problem in the Uk.

I saw a article recently in one of the research journals showing problems with drones that have had Varroa they were under weight with low enzyme and sperm counts. Also we should consider the reduction of feral colonies and thier contribution to the drone pool.

In terms of general introduction It's standard practice in the U.k after introduction to leave the hive for at least 6 days'. Any earlier and you will increase your chances of rejection. Queens may be released after 24h but it takes some time for them to bond with the colony.


Regards Ian
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2006, 10:04:28 AM »

>I know I have posted in on this topic before but...as a newbie beekeeper, what or how do you recommend I go natural in beekeeping.

Small cell has been sufficient for me.

> I like the idea of using no chemicals if possible, but my mentor disagrees about this as a basic practice. I've read discussions of small cell, which I don't think I am ready to try yet

Why?  All you really have to do is buy small cell foundation and start feeding it in as you get the chance.  It's standard beekeeping.  Or quite buying foundation. Smiley

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

> and I recently put a screened bottom board on one hive with a sticky board under it, what other natural options do I have?

There are, as Ian has pointed out, things are perhaps are not natural but are effective and don't build up in the wax.  Oxalic acid, I think, is the most promising.

> Is a screened bottom board the same function as a slatted rack?

It creates some of the same effects but not in the same way.  A slatted rack controls ventilation and keeps a path open for ventilation.  The SBB provides more actual air coming in.  The slatted rack will not help with the Varroa.  The SBB might help somewhat, but at least will help you monitor and see how you are doing with the Varroa.

> Day two into my apistan/formic acid treatment I found around a hundred varroa mites on the sticky board!

That's very few.  Either you don't have many varroa or they are resistant to the Apistan.  Apistan is worthless here in Nebraska as all the mites are resistant.

> That was only a few hours after putting on the screened bottom board...Is there something else to deal with varroa that is natural?

The only thing I would consider "natural" is to give the bees a natural environment so they can deal with the mites.  Everything else is a treatment.  But as Ian pointed out, there are treatments that are much less dangerous to the bees and don't build up in the wax.

> I did a sugar shake last week before the sticky bb was on so I don't know how effective that was.

Powdered sugar is fairly effective.

> Is it only small cell and screened bottom boards that you use to keep mites at bay, and ventilation to control other disease?

I do ventilation because I get more honey and less swarming.  I do small cell because it gives me healthy bees and keeps the mites under control.  That is all I do.

> Is there something else I missed here?

You didn't miss anything I do.  I did use FGMO fog while regressing and followed up with Oxalic acid vapor to see how the FGMO did.  By the next year I had them regressed and have done nothing since in most hives. Occasionally I inherit a hive of large cell bees and I have treated one of those with Oxalic acid vapor.

> My mentor says this many mites indicates a problem if not dealt with, so I treat until november when outside flight stops...I know you have both mentioned in previous posts that you used oxalic acid in the past, do you still?

No.

> Do you consider it natural or just a step in transition to what you do now?

For me it was just a transition.  But if I was not going to go to small cell Oxalic acid would be my second choice.

> or something to use if mite levels get too high?

Since I haven't had the mite levels get too high since I regressed, it hasn't been an issue.  I suppose if I thought a hive was really high on varroa I might treat with Oxalic, but I would also check to see that I have 4.9mm or smaller in the core of the brood nest and I would probably requeen, because they should be able to handle the mites on their own.  But I have not had that happen.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2006, 12:26:56 PM »

BEE C,

i think this is an age old argument, no matter what critters you raise.  the current religion in horses is to not shoe them.  lots of tender footed horses out there now, but they are "going natural".  

i'm not knocking natural.  i think it's the way to go anytime you can.  however, it would be a shame to lose your hive because of that choice, or have your hive seriously weakened.

do some research.  i'd love to see some controlled studies on small cell. there may be some out there, but i have not had time to research.  the Russian bees look promising, and that's what i got.  i didn't find many mites, but it's a new hive.  

i don't have ANY answers, but it seems to me that the common sense approach is to do what you need to do, and do what works for you.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2006, 05:15:56 PM »

Again MB has answered prettymuch the same as I would.  
To me, natural is using compounds that occur naturally in nature in innovations that do not interfere with the natural process--Oxalic acid and SBB are examples.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2006, 06:38:40 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Again MB has answered prettymuch the same as I would.
To me, natural is using compounds that occur naturally in nature in innovations that do not interfere with the natural process--Oxalic acid and SBB are examples.
_________________
 
what do you think about the apiguard?  that's what i used this year.  not to expensive and easy to use.  thymol is  also in lots of stuff that we people use every day.   Cheesy
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2006, 10:20:26 PM »

>i think this is an age old argument, no matter what critters you raise. the current religion in horses is to not shoe them. lots of tender footed horses out there now, but they are "going natural".

And my horses are barefoot and my horses are not tender footed.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2006, 10:53:17 PM »

mine are barefoot if they are not being ridden, and over the winter.  where i ride, is all mountain and rocks.  i could go without shoes, but would risk some serious stone bruises and torn up hoofs.  why do that?  

i used to have an arab that i never put shoes on.  depends on the critter.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BEE C
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 329


Location: British Columbia, Canada


« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 04:05:02 AM »

Thanks everyone,
Its good to get feedback from those more experienced in this.  I was a little concerned about the mite levels, I have checked the mites on the one sticky board every day since I started using it, and it is handy to know whats up, I'm building more for all my hives next year.  There was a heavy drop after I treated the hives the second time, and it seems to be less and less.  This being my first year, I have not wanted to lose either hive, one being a feral swarm which i was able to use to requeen the one hive that went queenless.  I feel lucky that i have been able to start hives from packages and hopefully get through winter.  I hear good things about oxalic acid but its too warm here yet to use it.  Next year I will try some small cell hives just to see, and I'm curious about that, but this year its been a big experiment just getting the hang of traditional beekeeping.  I also like what i have heard or read about slatted racks or screened bottom boards for ventilation, this is definitely something I would like to incorporate into all future hives.  Once again thanks for the suggestions.   steve
Logged
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2006, 06:07:24 AM »

Quote from: BEE C
Thanks everyone,
Its good to get feedback from those more experienced in this.  I was a little concerned about the mite levels,


What ever mite level you have, give to hives oxalic acid trickling and you get rid off troubles. To play games with varroa is not worth of it.
Logged
kensfarm
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 137

Location: Thurmont, MD


« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2006, 09:56:29 AM »

I've read on here before about using different plants for smoking the hives to cause mite drop.  Has anyone used a plant that contains oxalic acid to smoke the hive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

"Oxalic acid and oxalates are abundantly present in many plants, most notably fat hen (lamb's quarters) and sorrel. The root and/or leaves of rhubarb and buckwheat are listed being high in oxalic acid."
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2006, 06:41:11 PM »

It's doubtful a plant is going to have a high enough concentration of oxalic acid to do the mites any harm.  If it did you'd want to be very careful not to breath any of the smoke.  Smiley  Rhubarb leaves would be about as high as you'll find.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 2.206 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page April 16, 2014, 10:33:35 PM