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kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2006, 01:15:03 PM »

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why is the institution of 'straight' marriage important to society?


wow...this could be a long answer smiley, but i'll give you my RD version.

1.  i subscribe to the "slippery slope" view.  if you consider all the ways that a fundamental change in an institution can change society,  you can bet that eventually all of those changes will come to pass.  the potential bad in changing the institution of marriage out-ways the potential good for a small minority.

2.  i believe that the traditional family is the building block of our society.  it is were all good (and sometimes bad) in society comes from.  if you look at areas where the traditional family is outnumbered by non-traditional families, the structure of that local society is corrupt and dysfunctional.  people would blame race, poverty, etc. for the problem, but the fact is, it is lack of family structure that is the problem.  there are other places that are poverty stricken and have/had racial problem, but maintain the family unit and social structure without crime, abandonment of children, etc.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2006, 01:29:32 PM »

Quote from: kathyp


following that line of thought, men should be able to marry boys, multiple marriages should be ok.  moms could marry sons, and i could marry my horse....i'd just have to pick mare of gelding....hmmmmm.



If men can marry girls then why not boys? I'm sure there is an age limit in there somewhere.

There are multiple marrages. Not noted in the USofA, even though there are some hidden in the woodwork.

Incest could start a whole nother thread

Would that be a concentual marrage with your pony?Huh? shocked

Now on to the gay marrage. Jim marries John and that is wrong. But what if John became Jane through sexual reconstruction would the marrage between Jim and NEW Jane be OK now?Huh Still the same person, just reconfigured body.
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2006, 01:39:17 PM »

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i'm not thrilled with drug tests.  i would be equally dismayed to find that my childs bus driver was a meth user.  


With great freedom comes great responsibility. A part of that would be to find out for yourself if the Driver was a druggy. Does he get high while on the job? Has he ever endangered anyone with his drug usage? If you are so worried about it don't let your child on the bus. Why are you using my hard earned money to bus your child to school anyways? Huh? Just who do you think you are? wink

But once again. No matter how much you pushed for drug testing of the local bus drivers, if no one submitted to drug test, then there would either be no bus routes, or no drug test. And if you compromise now, which many do, then others will compromise later on. The more the majority demands to limit the minority, the easier it will be later to limit even more.

What we compromise today becomes reasons for revolution tomorrow.
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2006, 01:47:16 PM »

Quote from: kathyp


1.  i subscribe to the "slippery slope" view.


 shocked WOW  shocked  That is what I am preaching about smiley  smiley  smiley

The slippery slope. The more freedoms/rights that are refused now makes it easier to refuse more in the future.


Quote from: 1frozenhillbilly
...historicaly 2 to 5 hundred years is the life expectancy of democracy...


Does anyone wonder why?
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2006, 02:00:27 PM »

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The slippery slope. The more freedoms/rights that are refused now makes it easier to refuse more in the future.


when you choose to destroy the institutions that support a society, you must replace them with something.

  laws are the easiest thing.  any society has certain expectations for behavior.  the expectations are enforced by the structure of the institutions.  if you destroy the institutions, you must replace the structure with laws to regulate behavior
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2006, 02:05:50 PM »

Code:
Now on to the gay marriage. Jim marries John and that is wrong. But what if John became Jane through sexual reconstruction would the marriage between Jim and NEW Jane be OK now???? Still the same person, just reconfigured body.


since we have made it legal for  jane to change her gender, it would be legal for "her" to marry jim.  

you are making my slippery slope argument for me.

Quote

And if you compromise now, which many do, then others will compromise later on. The more the majority demands to limit the minority, the easier it will be later to limit even more.


there is always a fine line between freedom and chaos.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2006, 02:57:09 PM »

I'm not sure why I keep reading this strange and (although important) pointless comparisons of what is okay and what is not, and who exactly says something is okay and who suffers from it, and on and on.

Jerry, as far as the Fed ID card, no - not everyone can be put in jail, but businesses can be fined for selling their wares to not Id'd patrons. Quickly, when you have people unable to buy the simplest of things because they do not show proper identification, the thinking of those who are not complying would quickly change. Typically speaking FEW merchants would accept fines or stiffer punishment JUST to cover up for non-compliance.

It is like cigarettes to youth or the drinking age, we CARD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME in this country. I just traveled to Philadelphia and saved $115 a NIGHT but showing my Fed Card - Am I giving up any rights by doing so - maybe if I am paranoid, but I take pride in serving this wonderful country and if by being a respectable member of the DOD gets me 40% off a room in the heart of a major city, I'll gladly share my ID. What I didn't do Jerry is SELL MY SOUL TO THE DEVIL.

I would assume that this blood-thirsty government (or us radicals who wish to burn your bridges and corner you until you comply) would offer incentives to those who got Fed IDs, before making it mandatory - or at least during the transition from what you assume is freedom and total Fahrenheit 551 which comes with the Fed ID.

I still swear that all babies should start being DNA "SWABBED" at birth and a catalog is started which "in a single generation" could greatly reduce crime or at least capture and convict those guilty. At some point DNA Banking is a must, and before you totally flip-out from this thinking, NO I do not believe having records of every-one's DNA will stop some nut-job from taking a gun into a school-house and killing a bunch of innocents, but it surely might capture the dirt-bag IF he/she doesn't blow their own head off (as is usually the case).

We need to do something, and I again state and swear that I believe that if EVERYONE COMPLIES and is DNA Swabbed and Federal Id'd, then NO ONE is individually losing their privacy. And more-over, I believe it WOULD create a safer and less crime-ridden society because of the KNOWN INCREASE CHANCE of being caught if ANY trace DNA is left behind.

Increased personal protection (to me) out-weighs the giving up a saliva sample. You will never agree with such thinking and that is fine. I'm just afraid that YOU will NOT have much say about such matters if/when laws are created to take DNA, finger prints or enforce Fed IDs. Do I think you would go to prison, doubtful, you have done nothing wrong besides not comply. But if you REFUSE a BRETHILIZER TEST if pulled over for suspicion of DWI, you SURELY WILL GO TO JAIL - and I don't see a lot of difference between the two EXCEPT that PRIVACY ISSUES to you are of great concern - but at some point, you  and everyone else will need to CHOOSE who is the good guy and who is the bad guy and then choose WHICH TEAM you choose to be on. Being a rebel with a cause, still says you are a rebel and rebels are by their very name rebellious (a quick dictionary look-up here tells me) Rebellious: Synonyms:   alienated, anarchistic, attacking, bellicose, contumacious, defiant, difficult, disaffected, disloyal, disobedient, disorderly, dissident, factious, fractious, iconoclastic, incorrigible, individualistic, insurgent, insurrectionary, intractable, mutinous, obstinate, pugnacious, quarrelsome, radical, rebel, recalcitrant, refractory, resistant, restless, revolutionary, rioting, riotous, sabotaging, seditious, threatening, treasonable, turbulent, ungovernable, unruly, warring

IS THIS REALLY WHO YOU ARE OR WISH TO BE?Huh Or better put, DOES THAT REALLY DESCRIBE WHO YOU ARE NOW???
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kathyp
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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2006, 03:12:50 PM »

Quote
I still swear that all babies should start being DNA "SWABBED" at birth and a catalog is started which "in a single generation" could greatly reduce crime or at least capture and convict those guilty


"Gattaca" and "Minority Report" come immediately to mind  smiley

How about if we just shoot the criminals, or put them back on The Rock.  then we don't have to worry about any of it.  and....those little cameras everywhere really, really piss me off.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2006, 04:53:29 PM »

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson

Seems our founding fathers were;

 "Rebellious: Synonyms: alienated, anarchistic, attacking, bellicose, contumacious, defiant, difficult, disaffected, disloyal, disobedient, disorderly, dissident, factious, fractious, iconoclastic, incorrigible, individualistic, insurgent, insurrectionary, intractable, mutinous, obstinate, pugnacious, quarrelsome, radical, rebel, recalcitrant, refractory, resistant, restless, revolutionary, rioting, riotous, sabotaging, seditious, threatening, treasonable, turbulent, ungovernable, unruly, warring "
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2006, 05:19:52 PM »

everyone quotes TJ as if he were god.  i wonder what he would think of us now?  i think he'd be wondering why god hadn't struck us all down like sodomites.   cheesy
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2006, 07:09:02 PM »

"I am convinced that those societies (as the Indians) which live without government, enjoy in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of happiness than those who live under the European governments. Among the former, public opinion is in the place of law, and restrains morals as powerfully as laws ever did anywhere. Among the latter, under pretense of governing, they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep. I do not exaggerate... Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours his own kind; for I can apply no milder term to the governments of Europe, and to the general prey of the rich on the poor." --Thomas Jefferson

I like the first part of this one. Yeah, that must have been the life.

Quote from: kathyp
everyone quotes TJ as if he were god.  i wonder what he would think of us now?  i think he'd be wondering why god hadn't struck us all down like sodomites.   cheesy


No, not as if he were a god but because of people that want to run around  bragging about our freedom with one breath and want to restrict our freedoms with the next breath. We that quote these guys of the past are just trying to get across what freedoms these guys fought and died for and why would we be willing to give up even one of them..... ever.... for any reason.

Home of the brave indeed.

Perhaps he would wonder why they bothered.
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« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2006, 07:52:33 PM »

guess i didn't express myself very well.  i'll give this one more shot and then leave it be.

my main point was this:  if you are going to destroy the institutions that regulate behavior, family, church, and community, they must be replace by something else.  they are replace by laws.  i'm not saying that's a good thing.  it's just a fact.

it should also be noted that a discussion about "freedom" requires a definition of freedom.  it is safe to say that in TJ's day open homosexuality, NAMBLA, etc. would not have been tolerated.  those people would have been lucky to have only been run out of town.  if you define freedom as the ability to do whatever the hell you want, you have more freedom now, than they did then.  the difference is that society would have been more likely to have taken care of you then.

as late as ww1, you could have ended up in jail under sedition laws for speaking out against the government or military.  during ww2, we had a department of censorship and a department of propaganda.  
Lincoln pretty much tossed the Constitution in the toilet during the civil war.

so maybe we started this conversation at the wrong end.  we should have defined freedom, before we discussed freedom.

cheers   Cheesy
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2006, 08:52:28 PM »

Quote from: kathyp

so maybe we started this conversation at the wrong end.  we should have defined freedom, before we discussed freedom.


But if we agreed as to what freedom was then there would be no need for discussion. huh
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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2006, 05:23:51 PM »

And with freedom comes responsibility.
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2006, 01:17:58 AM »

Those who would sell their freedom for safety are soon slaves.  

I once met an individual who believed that government should govern every aspect of our lives.  That government knows what's best for its citizens--he became enraged Russia has been doing that since the Bolshivek revolution and China since WWII.
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« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2006, 01:35:48 PM »

show me your papers? give me some blood? no, show me your badge and no, I have the right to remain silent if I choose.
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