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Author Topic: Do you need to put a excluder on when trying to get honey  (Read 3575 times)
tom
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« on: June 26, 2006, 11:22:32 PM »

Hello

  Here is something that i would like to know do i really need a queen excluder when putting on honey supers or should i just leave it off. I do not want to let the queen up where honey can be stored.


Tom
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2006, 12:06:08 AM »

When it is heavy honey flow exluder makes only a dam between super and deeps.

When it is heavy flow bees fill even brood area with nectar. When season is over and you want to get brood away from honeyframes, then it is good to use excluder.

Give now foundations to be build. Put them in one block. Don't put every two drawn comb and foundation.
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BEE C
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 06:18:17 AM »

if i may step into this minefield on excluders...the only way to ensure no brood in the honey supers is using excluders.  However as experienced beeks (not me_) will tell you they do slow honey storage down.  Ive noticed honey in the empty brood cells below way earlier than the comb was built out in the supers and then a few days.  Plugging up the brood nest with honey is not good for swarming reasons, Now that I have a full on flow going on comb is built up in super and filling out like crazy.  However i did add some empty comb to the brood nest because it was getting so plugged with honey.  Old timers could probably give you the best advice on timing the excluder with the flow.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 06:54:11 AM »

If you really want honey, you need to leave it off.  Wink
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Michael Bush
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Kris^
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 07:21:50 AM »

There's only one instance where I use an excluder making honey -- when I'm trying to get frames for cut comb.  And that super is placed on top of a severely overcrowded single deep.  So crowded that it swarmed (but returned) and I split it into two extra nucs with swarm cells to keep from reswarming.  And it rebuilt so quickly that two weeks later it seems as strong as it was before it swarmed, and has capped 95% of the frames (as of last Sunday).  Woo-hoo!  Even at that, it took them about three weeks to begin drawing and filling the frames.  I want to get that super off this week and get a second deep of foundation on it as soon as I can.

-- Kris
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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 09:29:02 AM »

Quote from: BEE C
...the only way to ensure no brood in the honey supers is using excluders.


That is not true. I get broodless honey and do not use excluder, 160 lbs per hive, perhaps enough?

When you have brood in honey frame, put it topmost and bees emerge away there and bees.

I extract last honey away when brood has emerged. So simple.
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BEE C
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 04:54:00 PM »

ok good, I wanted to post a new topic on this.  Finsky do you take out your honey at the end of the season? On the bee farm I work at we extract frames of honey when we move hives to a new crop to get particular types of honey.  My own hives I would like to just leave them on, but I only have space in the hut for two supers on top.  I makes sense to leave them on, but I was worried about crystallizing honey if I waited too long.  As well I was worried about brood in the honey frames.  I did notice the reluctance of bees to move up once the excluders were on, so it makes sense that they would store more honey without excluders.  Is the timing of putting supers on critical to not having more brood up top smiley  Does there have to be a certain amount of space in the brood boxes to reduce the chances of the queen moving up smiley  I added supers just before the blackberry flow which is I guess the main summer flow in this area, according to my beeker neighbour.  This being my first season I appreciate any practical advice on how to go about not using excluders.  Id like to experiment.  For something like 160 lbs of honey i'm very willing to experiment...how many supers is that? Thanks. Cheesy
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 10:10:09 PM »

Quote from: BEE C
you take out your honey at the end of the season?


I take honey away 1-3 times in July and once before I feed them for winter. (first week of September)

Just now we have early yield and after one week I should start extracting. Canola is in bloom and it fills boxes rapidly. If weather is good I must take canola honey away every week and give more free boxes.



Quote
I only have space in the hut for two supers on top.


I use 3 deeps for brood and  4 -5 mediums for honey. This size hive is able to handle honey enough. I live in capitla city and in hives  must be room for one week honey at least and more.

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/valmis3.jpg

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on makes sense to leave them on, but I was worried about crystallizing



 Canola will be crystallized if it is in the hive one month. One year I had crystallized canola honey 600 lbs to next summer. It was a job to dilute it off frames.


If you have room enough for brood queen  need not lay eggs in honey boxes. Professionals like to limit the size of hive and size of brood area. Some put exluder on at the end of yiled season. So they get easily all honey away. I do not like that because it restrict the size of wintering colony.

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Does there have to be a certain amount of space in the brood boxes to reduce the chances of the queen moving up smiley



It depends on queen. Some are able to lay only one box. The best lay 2 and a little bit more. Often brood area has a lot of pollen. That is why I use 3 brood deep.  Usually queen does not lay in lowest box because it is too cold for ventilation. It is just for pollen and new nectar and field bees sleep over night there.


 
Quote
I added supers just before the blackberry flow which is I guess the main summer flow in this area,


I add boxes and super according how the amount of bees grow. I may have 5 boxes for bees even if they have no honey.

Then when honey flow comes in you need 3 honey boxes to get one capped box. Bees spread nectar over hive to rippen.  


 
Quote
For something like 160 lbs of honey i'm very willing to experiment...how many supers is that? Thanks. Cheesy


Here is my 3 best hives last summer I just have brought to fireweed area. They picked EACH in 3 weeks  300 lbs honey. Honey was capped from top to bottom. It is my record I suppose.

In one time I harvested from each hive 240 lbs capped honey.

3 miles away I had hives on canola field. There hives got about 60 lbs per hive.

Normally hives get from canola field about 200 lbs during 2 weeks. Hive must have  6 box .  If you have 4 box it will be stuck in few days  and they swarms. Canola does not like hot ( 25C) dry weather.

Our honey season is about 3-4 weeks. Now raspberry, canola and soon fireweed. I move hives twice this year.

My best average yield has been 260 lbs and worst 70 lbs 2 years later. It depends on so much what is the weather in July and did I moved hives in right place. All happens so fast.

Difference between sites may be 3-5 times.  To raise a big hive and put it in right place.  You may put the biggest hive in dry area or too culivated area and you get nothing.

Here I move my hives in the middle of summer. The weight of hives are about 200 lbs. I just piled them on carry and then piled on field.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 11:01:35 PM »

Over and over people keep asking the questions about queen excluders.  The bees will not lay in the supers if the brood chamber is large enough. That is probably the most important point.  For some hives 2 boxes is more than enough to keep the queen out of the supers, on others it takes 3 boxes or even more.
In order to keep the queen out of the supers it is best to figure 2 deeps or three mediums as a minimum size hive.  I use 4 mediums and then add forager space (empty room for the foragers at night) by adding a slatted rack between the brood boxes and the supers.  
I live on an Island so the forage area is limited by natural boundaries but still I can get 200-300 lbs of honey off of each hive each year using strong hives which are a direct result of the brood space available.
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 11:21:34 PM »

Quote from: Brian D. Bray
strong hives which are a direct result of the brood space available.


So it is. Professional beekeepers who has 500 hives play their their own game. Beginners has one brood box and one honey box and he try to follow professionals' tricks.

We have here in Finland same issue. I have not seen any reasonable axplanation how to use exluder.  I know that methods are many.

How to use excluder is really good question but I do not understand why it cannot be answered.
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BEE C
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 12:02:36 AM »

Brian and Finsky,
Thanks for responding to my questions about queen excluders. Cheesy This being my first year I am astonished by each week of this hobby.  Now that the main flow is on here, I am amazed at how quickly honey is plugging up.  The populations on one hive is three large (deep) brood boxes, the other hive is two large (deep) brood boxes.  I have one large (deep) super on each hive with ten frames of honey at various stages.  I just checked and eight of ten are being capped on each.  I've built two more large deeps to go on anyday now.  I checkerboarded one honey super over the three brood box hive.  It seems to be filling faster.  As Ive said, I am limited in vertical space as both hives are inside of a bearproof hive hut.  I think two large supers is all i can fit above.  Next year I will have an electric fence up and do hives on stands, which should be much easier to pile more boxes.  Finsky, I like your point about building up large hives, and viewing it from that perspective, good wintering.  Its a lot more clear to me how you each work your hives and why queen excluders are unnaturally constricting to a hive.  Thanks guys! Cheesy

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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 12:16:18 AM »

Yes, you hives are under my minimum in the shelter. I count that 4 box hive is able to bring 60 kg honey and  6 box hive 100-150 kg.

If I have three 4-box hive, I make them  two 6-box hive.

When you have 2 box brood, you need 3-4 box for honey.

one box brood produces about 4 box hive for main flow.

But it depends on pastures.  In different places you may get 150 kg or 30 kg with same size hive.

Just now my 4-5 box hives have brought 40-50 kg honey and main flow is ahead. They have wintered in 2-box hives.
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tom
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 12:56:35 AM »

Howdy guy's

   Ok i see that using a excluder will hinder me from getting honey now the bees have the top brood chamber just about all drawn out. And the queen is laying in the tops area but will she go back down or will the bees fill it up with honey and pollen. It has been raining here for the past few days and they have been working like crazy my carniolans are out early before the italians and are bringing a ton of pollen in the mornings and evenings but during the afternoon they are bringing no pollen and they are falling to the ground before they reach the hive so i take this as a flow is going on and things really has picked up since it has been raining. My second hive is drawing out comb fast and the drones in the hive are gone the only drones left are in my biggest hive. So when can i put on a super for comb honey and will i need a excluder for that.

Tom Smiley  Smiley
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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 04:14:08 AM »

Quote from: tom
So when can i put on a super for comb honey and will i need a excluder for that.


Surely comb honey will be ruined if queen lays eggs in combs.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 06:52:29 AM »

For comb honey I use 7/11 foundation from Walter T. Kelley.  The queen doesn't like to lay in it.  Or I just use foundationless frames and (since all my frames are the same size) put any brood back in the brood box and harvest the honey.  I rarely use an excluder in queen rearing and such and otherwise not at all.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2006, 06:57:12 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
I rarely use an excluder in queen rearing and such and otherwise not at all.


Queen is not willing to lay in new combs but if laying space is tight, it lays where ever.  But it is easy to see what happens and then you may clean larvae away?
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yoderski
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2006, 09:30:31 AM »

Bee-C, have you lifted a full deep of honey before?   It is remarkably heavy, so I hope that you have a helper or you will  be visiting your chiropracter after extracting!:)  I am dealing with tendonitis in my elbow just from the medium supers that I have been hoisting around...good luck with your hives--looks like a good setup.....Jon
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Jon Y.
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2006, 11:14:13 AM »

Quote from: yoderski
Bee-C, have you lifted a full deep of honey before?   It is remarkably heavy, so I hope that you have a helper or you will  be visiting your chiropracter after extracting!:)


If situation is so bad it is better leave whole beekeeping. If you have no arms, it is better that you do not drive a car.
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BEE C
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2006, 01:30:30 PM »

Jon,
From spring onwards I've been lifting deeps on the bee farm I work at, and yes its like real work!  I work in a group home where we do a lot of client/consumer lifting out of wheelchairs and such, but nothing compares to deeps...I couldn't believe the weight of my hives this week! I've been lifting up the back of the hives to check the weight, and as of this week forget it Cheesy The hive hut is not a good idea because of this.  I had to build it to keep Yogi bear out, but I will definitely be putting future hives on stands outside!  I do have a friend who is going to help with lifting off supers for extraction, thank god...I'm also trying to organize a business for some of the mentally challenged people I work with, to help out with whatever extraction work they can.  So I hope to have lots of workers once things expand, whether thats extracting the honey or helping cart the supers to the honey house.  I know what you mean though, one is so close to zero it might as well be, two is always better, three better yet...my dad always said "work smart, not hard".   Thanks for the thumbs up! Cheesy
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tom
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2006, 04:42:58 PM »

Howdy

    I want to know how about if u use a excluder with the edges cut off and it fits just in the middle but it will leave enough room for the workers to pass and not the queen by she would come up between the frames in the middle she would then bump into the excluder not  on the outside edges.


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