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Author Topic: Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??  (Read 2381 times)

Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« on: June 25, 2006, 05:34:36 PM »
Hey guys,

Checked on my hive today, problem. Just inside the frame on the foundation is really weird cells. They aren't like the rest of the foundation, but its on everyone of my frames in the upper deep. I did not check the lower deep at all. Also, I spotted no eggs in the upper deep brood chamber! There were plenty of capped brood, but maybe it was just the light that I couldn't see them? Maybe the queen didn't have enough time to lay another batch?  I also saw one queen cell in the middle of a frame with no eggs, just honey, or water it looked like. Help! I included some pictures: Also, with the foundation, some of  the capped brood protrudes, and cones at the top. Higher than the rest. Is that just a bee emerging? I used duragilt to start. Again, what should I do, let the hive raise their own queen, or purchase one, or wait a while? Thanks

Offline TwT

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Re: Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 05:38:27 PM »
Quote from: Shizzell
 Help! I included some pictures:


don't see any pic's!!!
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 08:25:16 PM »
The pictures didn't post.  But from your discription of the domed cells I'd say they were drones.  whenever the bees build swarm or supercedure cells they also like to increase the number of drone cells.  
If you see now new eggs then it is likely that either something happened to your queen or that the bees have already killed her in preperation for the emerging supercedure queen.
In this situation I recommend: Don't disturb the cells and let the hive correct itself to the point that a new queen begins laying and then requeen if you must or wait until next spring to requeen, which is what I would do.
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Offline Jerrymac

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 08:29:57 PM »
Quote from: Brian D. Bray

In this situation I recommend: Don't disturb the cells and let the hive correct itself to the point that a new queen begins laying and then requeen if you must or wait until next spring to requeen, which is what I would do.


And why would you requeen if the emerged queen is laying just fine?
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 11:55:59 PM »
I wouldn't, but some people have been lead to believe that re-queening is the solution to everything or that any queen raised in their own apiary is not of acceptable quality.  Neither is true but That's why I made the reference.
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Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 12:48:19 PM »
Ok, should I check in on them next week? Or should I leave it alone for a couple? And yes, I figured out they are drone cells. My dang camera isn't uploading to imageshack or photobucket  :cry: I'll get it as soon as possible, but the cells are not aligned, and weird shapes, instead of the usual comb. Is that what happens when you let them build their own comb from duragilt?

Another Question: Is it possible, the queen just hasn't had the time to lay in the upper deep? I did not search the lower deep for eggs. Also, a friend of mine thinks that the queen is still alive, and that the hive just creates those supercedure cells, just for the point of doing it... That has to be wrong.

Smirk.

Thanks

Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 12:56:48 PM »
Ok, here is one of the pictures. Bah, it doesn't show how the comb is messed up.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j208/Shizzell_2006/?action=view&current=100_0922.jpg

But, Why would a hive kill the queen if it is laying so well like in the picture?

Offline Finsky

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 01:03:55 PM »
Are those capped cells really brood. It looks capped syrup or honey to me? So even!
In lower part there are some drone pupae.

Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 01:15:57 PM »
its capped brood, the lighting is weird =\

Offline Finsky

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2006, 01:31:40 PM »
It is impossible to see from that picture what weird is going on in the hive.

More difficult is to say what to do with queen  :P

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 12:17:12 AM »
On the very bottom of the frame is a view of 3 cells that show that they contain brood.

>>Another Question: Is it possible, the queen just hasn't had the time to lay in the upper deep? I did not search the lower deep for eggs. Also, a friend of mine thinks that the queen is still alive, and that the hive just creates those supercedure cells, just for the point of doing it...

Your friend might be right.  Any queen cell in the center of a frame is a supercedure cell.  Bees will sometimes kill the old queen before the new queen hatches to insure that the new queen survives any possible encounter.  My rule of thumb is to never disturb a supercedure cell on the basis that it's better to go with a new homegrown queen than go queenless.

>>That has to be wrong.

No, it's not.  Bees often build supercedure cells or the start of them and then just as often tear them out.  Evidence of supercedure cells are signs that your bees are taking out an insurance policy on their continued existence.
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Offline TwT

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 07:40:15 AM »
looks normal to me.... I don't see nothing weird..
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Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2006, 05:19:54 PM »
Hmmm Interesting. I did not know that. Well, I'm going to check out them out tommorow. Its 85 F here and the bees are really bearding.

I'll give you more details tommorow. And hopefully, some better pictures. =/

Offline Michael Bush

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2006, 12:30:04 PM »
>Another Question: Is it possible, the queen just hasn't had the time to lay in the upper deep?

The queen will not lay in more space than the bees can manage.  The brood nest expansion is more to do with the number of bees than the quality of the queen.

>...and that the hive just creates those supercedure cells, just for the point of doing it... That has to be wrong.

If they are just cups, he is correct.  If they are cells, then the bees have a reason, however good or not.  The reason may be something that is not the queen's fault, or it may be her fault.

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Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2006, 03:30:58 PM »
Well, haven't taken a peek yet. But, today I walked out to the hive, and there she was. A queen, that was not marked. Thus, not mine. It was also outside of the hive.

Heres a picture:


Offline Brian D. Bray

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 04:44:15 AM »
Evidently a virgen on her way to or back from a mating flight.  From which I would guess that your hive superceded the queen.  It might not seem logical to us but they have there reasons for doing so.  This seems to be occuring alot.  I constantly see reports of possible supercedure on queens bought for re-queening or those that come with packages.
I believe the problem may be due to the fact that in order to meet the USDA requirements for interstate transport of bees they are being over medicated at the source and it is effecting their ability to function so the bees correct the problem via supercedure at the earliest opportunity.
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Offline Shizzell

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 02:49:40 PM »
Well, checked the bees today. Quite a bit of capped brood, except I saw no eggs or larvae. Also, amazing amounts of queen cells. I saw around 12 queen cells. Here are some pictures:


 - On this one, you can see the weird cell developement =/







So what do you think I should do? Because, half of them look to be swarm cells, and half of them supercedure cells. And then again, I saw a queen outside yesterday. They had 7 of 10 frames full on the deep top brood chamber full, and 9 of 10 on the bottom deep. So, I added another deep above that. So, I have 3 deeps, and after this i'm planning on adding another deep with a slatted rack below the 4th deep.

Thanks

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Weird Cell developement and no queen!!??
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2006, 05:49:38 AM »
It is evident that the hive superceded the original queen.  The new queen was evidently on her mating flights as I expressed in my last post.  From the quantity of queen cells showing it was also evident that the bees didn't want to take any chances on not having a replacement succeed.  Once the new queen starts laying you'll once again see eggs and larva--check again in a bout 2-3 weeks.
Usually the first queen to emerge will kill the others by stinging them right through the walls of the cells, however, with the number of queen cells showing she might have missed one or two so I'd get prepared for a possible swarm just in case.
Nice pics by the way--very helpful in diagnosis.
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