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Author Topic: time to start a nuc?  (Read 2449 times)
towson joe
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« on: June 18, 2006, 02:38:36 PM »

Everything seems to be going well with my six hives. I would like to start a seventh. Summer is here in the Mid-Atlantic and I'm juts watching and waiting to extract honey in about a month.

I have a brand new five frame nuc box an I want to take five frames from one of my strong hives that will be mixed with brood and food and start the nuc. I will not be introducing a new queen.

What do you all think?

Towson Joe
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TwT
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2006, 02:47:20 PM »

you can do that but why not just take 4 frames (one with eggs) and let them raise their own queen.... if you never done that before it is fun to watch and you will learn alot by just watching them, but one thing, only put 4 frames in a 5 frame nuc when doing this and spread them apart evenly, they will sometime attach the queen cell on one frame with burr comb to another frame and when you pull that frame to inspect you will kill the queen cell, that's just something I have learned the hard way, use 4 frames and after the queen has hatched, put a 5th frame in with no bee's (frame with foundation work well),, it also helps to shake a couple more frames in the nuc when letting them raise their own queen but make sure the queen from the hive you are getting the bee's from isn't on the frames....
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Finsky
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 03:27:30 PM »

Quote from: TwT
you can do that but why not just take 4 frames (one with eggs) and let them raise their own queen.... .


That is not good idea. When 4 frame nuc makes emergency cells, queens will be very small. The quality of queen will be worst possible.
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 03:37:29 PM »

haven't seen that Finsky, I understand what you are saying Finsky but when you add all the frames like a frame of eggs with brood and then another frames with capped brood and then a frame of pollen and a frame of honey, with plenty of bee's starting out, I have raised some good queens, the Gentlemen that shown me this has been raising top rate queens for almost right at 50 years and in this location it has works great, but sorry to disagree with you Ole buddie, I have raised some great queens this year with this method and they are huge, not small and are laying great patterns and fill up a brood nest in no time.... plus I will add I do put a top feeder on these nuc's and feed until the cell or cell's are capped.....
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Jon McFadden
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2006, 04:11:04 PM »

Finsky is wrong.
In the instructional movie made by the "The Bee Works", a 4 frame nuc is put together about the same as you are describing. He was very careful not to include too many eggs because the end result is to only have the queen for the nuc left. One step he took to insure the best queen would be raised was to inspect the nuc after 4 days to check for capped queen cells. Any capped queen cells after 4 days would have been raised without royal  jelly for a time and wouldn't produce a quality queen. He would destroy these cells and leave the ones still uncapped. He called this the No-Graft system, and is one of the three systems he demonstrates on this video.
Where you get into trouble with queen rearing and insufficient bees is with a large number of grafts in the hive and insufficient nurse bees to feed them.
One detail Finsky didn't take into account is that there will be a large force of nurse bees included when making up the nuc.
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2006, 04:22:49 PM »

Quote from: Jon McFadden
Finsky is wrong..


Heh, heh, that depends waht you wait for queens quality. If everything suits it is same what you do.  Tongue

It seems that you have not read any "queen raising" book.

Yes I know that even one frame of bees are able to raise queen like bug.

I have raised queens 40 years.

And one mistake is to let bees raise theirs own eggs to queen. In that case there are no selection to use good stock.

The quality of queens are the most critical matter in beekeeping. Yes, I am right what ever you say.  Tongue


To get   egg laying queen from small larva it takes  20-30 days. During that time byed queen produces  one cycle of bees from combs.

It is just wasting of time that 4 frame nucs raises it's own queens.

If someone needs one queen, there is no reason to raise his own.  If you need 10-20 queens, you need a good mother queen. And so on...

Just now I raise queens in hives which try to swarm. I get 10 high quality queen when I change larvae in swarming cells.


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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2006, 04:39:23 PM »

Cheesy , but what I was saying was why not try if he only wants to do a split, and you are very right about the days, it sometimes takes more days than that but thats if he wants to see how good of queens he can raise , but if you don't raise from a good stock then you will have medium queens or below adverage queens, we agree on that I know, but the queens you buy, they are usually open mated unless you pay big money for II or AI queens to know what you get, sooooo you have said before you like to buy your queens from a very good queen producer?? am I wright? well look at it this way, I might be a good queen producer  Cheesy  wink ,, some get lucky some times  wink , Finsky I believe every word you say but when I seen it for myself I got to disagree, sorry bro... good queens can be raise from the way I said above!!!!
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 04:49:06 PM »

Quote from: TwT
: good queens can be raise from the way I said above!!!!


I believe you that it works. But backround: 5 hives and he needs of 1 queen for nuc.
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2006, 04:54:58 PM »

Finman is right about how much time it could take to raise a queen, what I was talking about might be better in the early year, do what Finsky says and buy a queen and you might have a 2 deep hive before winter hits... Thanks for the help Finsky Bro Wink , my wife always says I need correction every now and then Wink
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Jon McFadden
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2006, 05:23:14 PM »

Sorry Finsky, I still have to disagree. Since you're throwing numbers out there, I've kept bees for 45 years, though I only started raising queens this year. I also have read several books on queen rearing over the years. These books focus on commercial applications.
A properly stocked 4 frame nuc can raise a quality queen.
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2006, 06:50:26 PM »

Quote from: Jon McFadden
Sorry Finsky, I still have to disagree. Since you're throwing numbers out there, I've kept bees for 45 years, though I only started raising queens this year. I also have read several books on queen rearing over the years. These books focus on commercial applications.
A properly stocked 4 frame nuc can raise a quality queen.


Jon I am not disagreeing with you but the time frame they have left up north where the starter of this topic is buying a queen might help a lot more than raising one..... if he wanted a extra queen or queens he should have started earlier IMHO!!!! here in Ga it would stile be safe to raise a queen but up north towards siberia were golf lives I wouldn't know!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2006, 12:09:59 AM »

Quote from: TwT
you might have a 2 deep hive before winter hits... Wink


To raise own queens is most interesting to me in beekeeping, but get a good mother queen from 4 hives is miracle to everyone.

If you do crowdy 4 frames nuc with young bees and give to it laying queen,  it is better to give 3 frames more. After a month you have one box full of bees.

So we are in the end of July. and you have one box full of bees and frames full of brood. If nuc gathers too much honey, give food frames to big  hive, so queen gets more room for eggs.

Small colony 4-5 fames goes over winter but in spring it has great difficulties to build up. One box wintered colony is very normal case.
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2006, 12:43:06 AM »

Quote from: Jon McFadden
Sorry Finsky, I still have to disagree. .


You are wellcome. I must addmit that I have not even heard about 4 frame queen raising nuc. Every year I have big hives which are going to swarm. I use them to raise queens.

Just now, dam, too many 5-box hives are raising queen cells and I must split them into brood section and queen with flying bees to foundations section. I need about 40 queen per summer.

I have taken larvae from hives which have swarming tendency.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2006, 07:47:41 AM »

>A properly stocked 4 frame nuc can raise a quality queen.

In my experience it's about bee density and food availability.  A two medium frame nuc can raise about six very nice queens if it's overflowing with bees.  A two deep box can raise some poor queens if it's sparsely populated and short on stores.
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2006, 09:28:13 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
A two medium frame nuc can raise about six very nice queens if it's overflowing with bees.


I have seen those queens enough and suits not for me. I have hives enough to give a good hive for queen raising. I do not try to "minimize efforts" in this issue.

Cold weather or rain may surprise us in Finland when ever and 2 frame or 4 frame nuc is not proper to raise queens.

Quote
A two deep box can raise some poor queens if it's sparsely populated and short on stores.


That will really happen when swarms have left and the rest of hive is sparsely populated. Most of field bees has gone and they get not enough food for larvae.

It is also said that if laying queen is in the hive, nurser bees take better care of queen cells.



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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2006, 07:05:56 AM »

Animal husbandry whether we're talking bees, pigeons, goats, cows or horses ad infintum, has shown that even the best stock can occassionally throw some ringers and marginal stock can throw some beauts.  the goal of selective breeding is to improve the stock you have regardless of the quality you began with.   From my experience you're all right and you're all wrong.  Every thing discussed will work some of the time and fail at other times. Que sera sera as they say in old Mexico.
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2006, 08:29:18 AM »

Quote from: Brian D. Bray
From my experience you're all right and you're all wrong.


 I am not so desperate, yet !


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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2006, 10:19:04 AM »

Quote from: Brian D. Bray
  From my experience you're all right and you're all wrong.  Every thing discussed will work some of the time and fail at other times.


yeah, Now I wouldn't go that far Wink  but any think can go bad. raising queens like me and Jon McFadden is done by a lot of beekeepers and done very successfully!!! now where I agree with Finsky at was the time frame and for this situation meaning they wouldn't have enough time to build the hive up in time if he raised his own queen, now towson joe could do this earlier in the year and give his raised queens time to build up but living up north he should buy a queen this time of year....
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
Amateurs built the ark,
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