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Author Topic: Interesting conversation today  (Read 1583 times)
Understudy
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« on: June 01, 2006, 06:20:57 PM »

I got on the phone today with Mr. John Seets. He sells Permacomb.
I have just received my second order from him. I was calling to let him know I had received it. I also figured I would ask him a few questions. I will share my enlightenment with you.
1. I am getting ready to pull a box fo frames for extraction. After extracting the honey can I return the frames to the hive? Or do I have to prep them again?

You can return the to the hive you do not have to prep them again.

2. I have noticed that my worker cells in permacomb when capped are domed shaped like a drone cell but they are actual worker cells. Is this normal.

Not to worry, this happens it can also be seasonal  in some areas. They are not drone cells but worker cells.

After John and I discussed some more details about this it basically boiled down to this in my opinion. I have bees coming from rite cell frames which tends to cause the workers to be physically larger. And so as the queen gets use to working with the permacomb the bees will become smaller (this is a good thing) and the cells will be less pronounced.

John and I discussed several things including my desire to cause the bees make more brood and less honey in the frames. Anyone notice how the bees just do what they want to do and don't consult the beekeeper? I have been preparing the permacomb by soaking the frames in sugar water with Honey B Healthy in order for the bees to accept the frames more readily. The bees do that and then turn around and convert the mix to honey. Which I don't want I want brood in these frames. I might as well be putting a jar at the entrance. If all they are going to do is suck up my sugar water mix and make honey out of it.  John explained that I can also rub beeswax on the permacomb as a means of gaining acceptance of the permacomb in the hive. I am going to try that with my next batch of permacomb.

Now mind you I am not complaiging I have lots of honey to extract and that is great but I want the hive stronger and I want the honey to not be my sugar water mix that bees have decided is a quick food source. Also I cant say that this is always going to happen. Hive one took the sugar water mix and must have spit it on the ground because the queen is laying in those frames with no problem except that she is a leftist bee. So I can't say that the sugar water mix is going to always convert to honey but that ican happen.

I also discussed the weight matter since I was so caught off guard by how heavy the box was. A full 10 frames in a medium of permacomb is over 60 pounds.  This was correctlly confirmed by others in another thread but I figured I would mention it here.  John is a fan of the 9 cell honey supers. I explained that I had intended this for brood but once again the bees didn't consult me.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 07:22:07 PM »

> A full 10 frames in a medium of permacomb is over 60 pounds.

My estimate is 78 pounds.

Another reason for eight frame boxes...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Understudy
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 07:48:20 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
> A full 10 frames in a medium of permacomb is over 60 pounds.

My estimate is 78 pounds.

Another reason for eight frame boxes...


Michael,

Are your 8 frame hives the standard hive size at the perimeter or do they have a different dimension?

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 10:01:55 PM »

If you go to Western Bee Supply in Montana they offer 8 frames in four sizes depending on how much side room you want.  13 1/4, 13 1/2, 13 3/4, and 14.0 outside measurement.  I use the size I was acquainted with as a youth--13 3/4 which gives 1/2 wiggle room on each side of the frames (you should be able to figure out the corresponding wiggle room from there).  I've always considered 13 3/4 The Standard when it came to 8 frame but that's just me.  
I make my own--he keeps me from going mad with nothing to do, alone with the pigeons, the chickens, the goats, the garden, the orchard, and lawn and the wife--her honey-do list can bee a killer.
I know Michael will put his 9 frame in on this.
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latebee
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2006, 10:46:17 PM »

I am interested in the permacomb-Michael Bush perhaps it was you who had a method of coating this with melted beeswax? I think you mentioned preheating the permacomb to 212 degrees before coating-what did you do to preheat the permacomb? This was quite some time ago and I am not sure if it was Michael or some one else who devised this method for making some thing similar to small cell out of permacomb.
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2006, 10:59:37 PM »

Quote from: latebee
I am interested in the permacomb-Michael Bush perhaps it was you who had a method of coating this with melted beeswax? I think you mentioned preheating the permacomb to 212 degrees before coating-what did you do to preheat the permacomb? This was quite some time ago and I am not sure if it was Michael or some one else who devised this method for making some thing similar to small cell out of permacomb.


Yeah it was Michael, please ask his wife how the kitchen looks. Spinning round with frames with hot wax in the kitchen, means here years later he is probably still cleaning up wax.

Basically as I recall he would heat the frames up in the oven to  certain temp and them do a double boil on the wax. As it floated around the top. He would dip the oven warm frames into the pot with the wax and let it in the cells. He would then spin the frames so they would leave a very lite coat in the permacomb cells. Thus leaving them at a more natural cell size. Not that permacomb is that far from a natural cell size.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2006, 07:09:16 AM »

>Are your 8 frame hives the standard hive size at the perimeter or do they have a different dimension?

Mine are all standard medium boxes that are 13 3/4" wide (the size that Brushy mt. sells all those wonderful accessories in.)

>I know Michael will put his 9 frame in on this.

I do.  Alternating a PermaComb with a standard comb makes this pretty easy and I don't have to cut the end bars down.  Smiley

>I am interested in the permacomb-Michael Bush perhaps it was you who had a method of coating this with melted beeswax?

Yes.

>I think you mentioned preheating the permacomb to 212 degrees before coating-what did you do to preheat the permacomb?

I put the PermaComb on a piece of cardboard in a 200 F oven (as confirmed by an independent oven thermometer)  Then, after it's hot, dip it in the 212 F beeswax until all the bubbles stop.  Then shake all the wax back off.

> ... this method for making some thing similar to small cell out of permacomb.

It ends up the equivelant (when you take into account the diffence in cell wall thickness) of 4.95mm comb.

>Yeah it was Michael, please ask his wife how the kitchen looks. Spinning round with frames with hot wax in the kitchen, means here years later he is probably still cleaning up wax.

I have an oven outside (a wonderful thing in the summer anyway) and the mess is all out there.  It is very messy and very effective.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2006, 04:12:08 PM »

I looked at plastic foundation when it first came on the scene back in the early 60's.  I didn't like it then as the wax came off the plastic too easily or the bees stripped it to begin making comb and then left frames with only half the frame drawn out.  then along came aluminum backed foundations that had the same problems.  Durgalit was the first band name I recall, I was not impressed and I'm still not.  It seems to require a lot of labor intensive work before you can even put it in your hive.
I just let the bees do their thing.  
The only changes I've made have been to make things easier for me to accomplish from a wheelchair, or to make the hive a more comfortable work place for the bees to work in--better work environment, don'twe all want that?  I see no problem with letting the bees make comb--they will make burr comb if they can't make anyother kind.
Here's a little math--Assuming it takes 8 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax (approx one super full) and at the rate of 1 pound to the pint (US Weights & Measures) then 8x8 means it take 64 gallons of nectar to make 1 pound of wax.  Wow!!
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