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Author Topic: adding second deep  (Read 2731 times)
heidip
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« on: May 25, 2006, 02:51:11 PM »

greetings from sunny cape cod, ma...quick question...we got off to a slow start up here in New England because of all of the rain and cold weather, but it looks like thing are finally picking up. first year beek..hived packaged bees on 9 April...so we're into our 6th week. My girls have only drawn 6 of the frames in the deep...(I label them F1, F2 from the side etc. so the two outside frames on each side are still not drawn out F1, F2...F9, F10)...in my inspection today there was soooo much capped brood, so many larvae and so many eggs that I thinking I'm going to have a bee explosion next week and those following, I do inspect every week ...so my question is this...what's the basic rule for adding the second deep? I was told when 7 of the 10 frames are drawn (I'm not there yet), but I'd just like to check that that's accurate and would appreciate some feedback from all of you experienced beekeepers! Thanks! hp
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2006, 03:19:59 PM »

It is small hive and it will not explode. If it has 6 drawn frames , it has 4 brood frames I suppose.

When I have this kind of hives I use movable inner  wall.  Empty space loose warm from brood area and slow down build up. Further more I have in picture electrict heater on bottom.

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/tiny.jpg

I suppose that you have allready new bees emerged there.

You should have whole box full of bees when you add next deep. And put that second deep under brood box.

Look that hive has one frame full of food for bad days and do not feed it any more. Extra feeding takes room from brood.
.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2006, 05:05:12 PM »

so you say that the second deep goes under the first thereby making it the bottom?
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2006, 09:55:23 PM »

Please note that Finsky stated a full box of bees, this does not mean a full box of comb.  If you're using comb and honey as a supering guage then super when 80-90% full (10 frames mostly drawn and 1 or 2 frames still filling with nectar).

randybusdriver: It is a common practice, the feeling that putting the 2nd broodbox under the 1st pulls the queen back down and later seems to serve as a imaginary queen excluder.  That might be a bad way of explaining it but I think you get the idea.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 05:33:37 AM »

ok...thanks. i think i'm going to have to add one over the weekend...at least to the strong hive. the other one still lags by about a week or so and i'm still feeding it.
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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 05:39:45 AM »

Hi Randy!

It depends too, what is your climate. If you have warm nights it good to put new box on.

But you are still feeding HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh What is the idea.
Dont they get nectar from nature?HuhHuhHuhHuh

.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 06:00:16 AM »

i'm feeding the weak hive only. they were installed on April 24th but the package contained a lot of dead bees so they havent been very strong.

the weather here has been quite cool for the time of year up until now. yesterday was the first day i opened the windows in my house.
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 07:08:01 AM »

Quote from: randydrivesabus
i'm feeding the weak hive only. .


Feedind does not help week hive. Give from stronger hive a frame of emerging bees. Shake first all bees away. One full fmae gives 3 frames bees.

After a while add another frame untill hive has one box bees. So it continues itself.

If you have so cold climate I recommend to add to one box hive second deep under brood area.
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 08:20:41 AM »

ok...thanks. i will try that.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2006, 04:38:05 PM »

Still feeding bees in mid-May.  Are we beekeepers or pet owners?
Please understand that excessive or prolonged feeding of bees proves to be a detriment not a solution.  Bees need to work and we need t let them, feeding should be kept to a minimum like 3 or 4 drawn combs with eggs in some.  That's all--nothing more--zilch--Nada.  Wakadamatsu? Anamok? Comprende?
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 05:33:16 PM »

ok...so i quit feeding. i added another deep below the full one on the strong hive. i stole a frame of brood from the strong hive and switched it out with an empty from the weak one. i got my first sting. wasnt much to it. wasp stings are worse but not too bad either.
i need to leave them alone for a while now and let them do their thing. i will check them again in a week.
i should have started 10 hives instead of 2 but i guess you gotta start somewhere and get your feet wet.

short sleeves and smokeless.
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SherryL
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 06:16:01 PM »

Brian, with all due respect, my thoughts on feeding wouldn't be quite so cut and dried.  We all deal with different climates, bloom-times, ect.  Our dandelions in far N. Wisconsin don't bloom until mid-late May!  Newbies are nervous enough about feed/ don't feed, maybe better to err a week or two on the long end than have a thousand dead bees in front of your hive.

Shoot, I had to put feeders back on last August after 8 weeks with no rain.  No rain - no nectar.  No nectar - no honey.  No honey - no bees.  

Heidi, if I can offer one suggestion - as a beekeeper now, you should take the time to record as much information as possible about your hive visits, and daily weather.  I just keep my notes in a little 4x6 notebook.  It will be invaluble to you next year in the way you manage your hives.  Good luck with your new girls and most of all - enjoy your new hobby!
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BeeHopper
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2006, 06:54:03 PM »

Building on heidip's question on when to add the 2nd deep to complete the brood boxes, everything that I have read so far in my books is to add the 2nd deep on top whether it is comb or foundation. I find it interesting and a little confusing to add the deep to the bottom, forcing the queen to work downwards. But what about the workers, will they work their way down and draw the foundation and what about the returning foragers finding  foundation in place of the brood and food stores ? Will they move right up to top brood box ? IF this practice is common, why am I reading about it only here? Maybe I missed something. (Beehopper seeks wisdom of Experienced Beeks)
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SherryL
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2006, 07:34:11 PM »

Beehopper,

Finsky's been keeping bees far longer than I have - if he says bottom then bottom it is. Wink  But all kidding aside....

I understand your concern that the bees - traditional thought to want to work 'up' - will be 'forced' to work down.  Wouldn't be too worried.  Here's why: your entrance is on the bottom, right?  If your 2nd box were put on top, your bees would have to travel over the 1st box to get to it anyway.  Put the new box on the bottom, no problem, you're saving your bee the extra steps as they come into the hive.  When you go to add the second box you'll 'checkerboard' in some frames from the 1st box.  Like Finksy says, a frame of food and if your weather is warm enough now (it should be) maybe 2 frames of capped brood.  If your 1st box is truly FULL of bees, you'll have pleny in there to keep everything nice and toasty.  The checkerboarding 'baits' that box for the bees to start working.

Now, with all that said - one more thing to keep in mind.  Swarming.  Don't let anyone tell you a new package can't or won't swarm.  They can and will (I have all the pictures to back that up).  Finsky says to wait until your box is "full" of bees.  Just be careful that you don't wait so long the queen has no open brood space.  Keeping that brood space open is one of the keys to swarm prevention.  If you have 'outside frames that are not yet 'drawn', consider moving one or both (checkerboarded, not next to each other) to the middle of the box - as long as you have 'food' frames to keep on the far outsides (not brood frames).  Once the bees start working those frames you'll want to have that second box ready to go on.

Does that clear up some confusion?  Hopefully? Wink
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2006, 11:01:26 PM »

SherryL
There are occasional exceptions to every rule.  
But most newbees overfeed, and I'm trying to point that we need to let the bees be bees.  If we fool some guidelines on feeding we will be less apt to over feed which can lead to a host of problems not the least of which is no place to rear young.
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BeeHopper
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2006, 11:17:13 PM »

Quote from: SherryL
Beehopper,

Finsky's been keeping bees far longer than I have - if he says bottom then bottom it is. Wink  But all kidding aside....

I understand your concern that the bees - traditional thought to want to work 'up' - will be 'forced' to work down.  Wouldn't be too worried.  Here's why: your entrance is on the bottom, right?  If your 2nd box were put on top, your bees would have to travel over the 1st box to get to it anyway.  Put the new box on the bottom, no problem, you're saving your bee the extra steps as they come into the hive.  When you go to add the second box you'll 'checkerboard' in some frames from the 1st box.  Like Finksy says, a frame of food and if your weather is warm enough now (it should be) maybe 2 frames of capped brood.  If your 1st box is truly FULL of bees, you'll have pleny in there to keep everything nice and toasty.  The checkerboarding 'baits' that box for the bees to start working.

Now, with all that said - one more thing to keep in mind.  Swarming.  Don't let anyone tell you a new package can't or won't swarm.  They can and will (I have all the pictures to back that up).  Finsky says to wait until your box is "full" of bees.  Just be careful that you don't wait so long the queen has no open brood space.  Keeping that brood space open is one of the keys to swarm prevention.  If you have 'outside frames that are not yet 'drawn', consider moving one or both (checkerboarded, not next to each other) to the middle of the box - as long as you have 'food' frames to keep on the far outsides (not brood frames).  Once the bees start working those frames you'll want to have that second box ready to go on.

Does that clear up some confusion?  Hopefully? Wink


SherryL, Thanks for clearing that up. I am very close to adding the 2nd deep for both hives ( the packages were hived on the 23rd of April with Buckfast Queens) I will try it. Thanks Cheesy
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2006, 02:07:02 AM »

Quote from: BeeHopper
Building on heidip's question on when to add the 2nd deep to complete the brood boxes, everything that I have read so far in my books is to add the 2nd deep on top whether it is comb or foundation.


Books offer to put new box over the brood box. I have found usefull to put second box in spring uder brood area.

Heidi writes that he has cold weathers.

If you read Canadian adviced you may find often that in spring that they recommend to enlarge under brood area, for hive warming.

If you are in Florida and your nights are near 20C, it is same what you do.  +10C is cold for bees and note that nights are worst than days.

Heidi's basic issue is that hive has now 6 frames bees.

She ask when to add boxes.

The answer is :
1) Wait untill she had bees in every gap of frames (bees emerge)
2) All foundations are drawn up
3) If Hiedi does not know when it is time to give a second box, it is better to give under brood are when first box is almost all drawn.

BUT if Heidi has rape or something else which gives huge amount nectar in one week, she should be carefull and give second foundation box under brood area.

If colony is small, it is not able to warm up empty foundation box in cold climate. It slow down progress and chalk brood may appear soon into hive.  

Warm air rise up even in hive
.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2006, 10:49:32 AM »

I suppose it comes from keeping bees in very cold climates like Laramie Wyoming; Mitchell, Nebraska; Brighton, Colorado; and, in Finsky's case, Finland, but I think heat and proper amount of volume is a bgt issue with a package getting established.  Finsky seems to be one of the few beekeepers who has a very complete grasp of this.

I'd rather add the room right when it's needed.  Also the myth that bees will only expand up is easily proven false.  I've put a package of bees in four boxes with foundationless frames.  They always start at the top and build down to the bottom.

I would follow Finsky's advice.  Wait until it's needed and add it to the bottom.
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