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Author Topic: Nine Frame super over 10 frame brood  (Read 3615 times)
tillie
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« on: May 27, 2006, 02:01:34 PM »

How confusing is it for the bees if I put a 9 frame super over the 10 frame containers below.  

In the Hive and the HB Chap 14, John Ambrose recommends the 9 frame honey super, but he also uses 9 frame brood bodies.

Will the bees have a problem moving from 10 frames to 9?  I can see in my hive that between the hive body and the next super and between the second super and the third that they appear to build comb as a mode of transportation between the levels.  

Can they go diagonal without a problem to accommodate the fact that the honey super will not line up with the frames below or if I do this will I see more burr comb or will they avoid the super with nine frames?  Or, as usual, am I worrying too much?

Linda T in Atlanta
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 03:29:03 PM »

I do not recommend using 9 frames broodboxes regardless of how many broodboxes your using per hive, especially if you are starting with foundation.  9 frames, in my experience promote burr comb.
If you must use 9 frames let the bees draw the foundation into comb using 10 frames and then dropping to 9.  
The idea behind using 9 or even 8 frames in a ten frame hive is to make decapping easier for extraction.  I don't find it necessary as decapping forks solve the problem.  I tried 9 frames back in the early 70's and soon abandoned the idea.  It created more problems than it solved.  Major burr comb was only the most obvious.
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tillie
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 03:38:02 PM »

If I get any honey at all (this being my first year) I'm not planning to extract, but rather crush and strain.  The 9 frames would be going into a shallow super with thin wax non-wired foundation for the comb so that I can cut it or crush it or whatever.  

Below that 9 frame or whatever super I use next is a deep hive body, a medium super that the bees are using for brood and honey storage and a shallow super that is already there with 10 frames drawn out and almost full of honey with most of it being capped.

Obviously, I'll have to put a new super on in the next couple of days, but it can be just as easily 10 as 9.  I've read in a number of books that honey supers often have 9 to make the uncapping process easier, as you mentioned, Brian.

Linda T wink
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2006, 03:38:14 PM »

>How confusing is it for the bees if I put a 9 frame super over the 10 frame containers below.

Walt Wright thinks it matters.  I put 11 in the brood nest and 9 in the supers (or in the eight frame hives 9 in the brood and seven in the supers) all the time.  The bees have no problems with this.  I shave the end bars down to 1 1/4" to get that many in or I alternate them with PermaComb that has no spacers on it.

>In the Hive and the HB Chap 14, John Ambrose recommends the 9 frame honey super, but he also uses 9 frame brood bodies.

I don't like 9 frames in the brood nest.  They build honey sticking out further than the brood so the surface of all the brood combs is in and out dependin on if it's honey or brood.  Some research has shown that tighter spacing helps prevent nosema (or since the bees prefer the tighter spacing maybe I should say that the wider spacing contributes to nosema).

>Will the bees have a problem moving from 10 frames to 9?

No.

> I can see in my hive that between the hive body and the next super and between the second super and the third that they appear to build comb as a mode of transportation between the levels.

They will still build some.

>Can they go diagonal without a problem to accommodate the fact that the honey super will not line up with the frames below

Yes.

> or if I do this will I see more burr comb or will they avoid the super with nine frames? Or, as usual, am I worrying too much?

You're worrying too much.  Also, put ten frames in the supers when it's foundation or they will make a mess.  Put them tightly together in the center.  After you have drawn comb that you are reusing next year, THEN space them out to 9 frames.
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SherryL
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2006, 07:48:29 PM »

....and listen to Michael, he's a smart man.  Cheesy

Hi Michael, it's Sherry.  Just wanted to say 'hi', and that your boxes are making themselves at home.  wink   I'll take some pics next time I'm up there.  We'll be moving up permanently next week - we've sold our home here in IL.
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2006, 06:05:46 AM »

If you're using foundation in that super, you should put 10 frames in. Save going to 9 frames until the comb has been drawn.
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2006, 07:11:11 AM »

Quote from: tillie
If I get any honey at all (this being my first year) I'm not planning to extract, but rather crush and strain.  :


That is awfull waist.

First year problems is to get combs build. Then you are going to destroy them.

When you have  5 box langstroth hive, bees need there 100 frame equal 20 lbs wax. Half of that is foundation wight. That amount wax needs needs 160 lbs honey to draw up.  It is good yild per year and every year!

With this method you will never get honey  Tongue
.
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tillie
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2006, 08:32:04 AM »

I'm confused, Finsky.

Do you mean that by using a crush and strain method rather than extraction that I will be wasting the energy of the bees because they have to build the comb up again next year?  Isn't that what people who want comb in their honey have to live with to get honey?

While I certainly do want honey, I'm raising bees to learn about the bees and for the challenge of learning how to be a good bee landlord more than to get the most honey possible.  

Maybe it will still be OK, since I'm in the south where we have a number of honey flows every year.

Linda T in Atlanta wink  wink  wink
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2006, 08:40:21 AM »

He is right to a point. It does take a lot of time and energy for the bees to make that much comb. Now, here in the south, we do have a lot of nectar flow so that makes it easier but it still limits what you can get honey wise.

If you do not have access to an extractor than this is a moot point. You have no choice but to crush & strain. If you do have access though, maybe you could extract one and crush the other....
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tillie
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2006, 08:48:35 AM »

That could be an interesting experiment - to extract one and crush the other.  I don't have an extractor, but my bee club does and lends it out.

I took a bee workshop at the John Campbell Folk School and the instructor, Virginia Webb, whose sourwood honey won best honey in the world at Apimondia, left us to take half the class to visit her hives.  

Our job was to clean the extractor.  

We took it apart to clean it - there was no way to get down into it without doing so - in doing so I forgot the rule my father taught me of drawing a diagram first and keeping nuts in the right place by screwing them onto what they are attached to after undoing it.  Needless to say, putting it back together was a challenge - none of us had ever seen an extractor before.

It took FIVE of us struggling and finally we got it in place - so now I feel like I REALLY understand how the extractor is put together and works!

 cheesy  cheesy  cheesy Linda T in Atlanta embarassed  embarassed  embarassed
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Finsky
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2006, 09:29:45 AM »

Quote from: tillie
I'm confused, Finsky.

While I certainly do want honey, I'm raising bees to learn about the bees and for the challenge of learning how to be a good bee landlord more than to get the most honey possible.  



How can you learn when you not learned my first advice?

I am good landlord when I kick to bees' arse and order them work to me. And no twinks at all. They try to escape from me but I cut queen's wing. They are obliged to return.  That is good landlord, LESSON #1.

Here you  get one Lord-model from Finland
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,19211547%255E912,00.html

http://www.mittelbayerische.de/SID_ed88434c1e56b75127fb269563f44662/newsbilder/mzbilder/2006/05/24/gr_250_008_6685784_Lordi.jpg

.
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tillie
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2006, 09:47:05 AM »

My goodness, looking at that link gives me a whole new perspective on you, Finsky -  cheesy  cheesy  

I'll see if "arse kicking" fits into my repetoire as a beekeeper!

Linda T (still laughing at Lordi in Atlanta)
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2006, 10:28:38 AM »

Richard Taylor was quite eloquent on the subject of an extractor:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 10:40:13 AM »

I agree with what they say, I have not seen a difference with putting 9 frames supers over a 10 box, it is always best if you get your supers drawn out and uncap them , extract the honey and let bee's clean them up , then store for next year, drawn out frames are so much faster also and easier on the bee's...
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tillie
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 11:18:02 AM »

I thought this looked like an interesting way to try for the small beekeeper:

http://www.backyardhive.com/Articles_on_Beekeeping/Features/A_Simple_Harvest/

Although I don't have a TBH, seems like it could work with taking out one frame of a super and replacing it with an empty one.

Meanwhile, thank you, Michael, I'll head for Home Depot and buy a plastic bucket in which to drill holes for hopefully more than one jar of honey.

Linda T out weeding the garden in Atlanta wink
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TwT
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2006, 11:24:45 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
Richard Taylor was quite eloquent on the subject of an extractor:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm


that is a good Article MB....
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