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Author Topic: Help Please - Hive in Foundation  (Read 2704 times)
bassman1977
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« on: May 23, 2006, 07:15:03 PM »

I need some help for this one.

I have a new hive forming in the foundation of my house (if I can capture this one this will be two feral hives from my back yard in as many months).

I will be posting pictures as soon as my wife downloads them onto the computer but here's how it is:

There are three entrances to the hive, two which are parallel from each other.  One entrance goes to the outside, the other two into my basement in one way or the other.  The biggest problem is that even though the space they are getting into is small, it is where my electrical line is coming into the house.

I don't think there is a concern for the bees to be in my foundation, I can just try to seal off the entrances leading to the inside of the house and let them live as long as they want in the foundation, and when they leave, seal off the final entrance.

Of course I don't want to kill them and instead of letting them live out their years, months, whatever, in my foundation, I have a nice home ready to go for them if I am able to intice them into it.

I have part of a plan to take this hive however I need help on the details.

I was thinking that I can use a hive body and put it in front of their entrance since it won't be too far for them to move.  My problem is how to get the queen?  Is there some sort of lure I can get in order to attrack ol' queeny (her band of merry ladies will then follow her move).  How about a lure that will attract the merry ladies and I use my own queen leaving the other to her own demise  evil ?

Tearing apart the foundation to get the hive is out of the question.  I have enough work around here to be messing around like that.  But I'm game for anything else within reason (not the beat on the wall and hope the queen comes out method either).

I'd appreciate any help anyone can offer.

Thanks!
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Doorman
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2006, 08:23:42 PM »

When you say foundation, what type do you mean? You have a basement, so  I assume your main floor joists rest on the walls of the basement. I'm having a hard time picturing in my mind why you can't access them.
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Apis629
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2006, 08:30:19 PM »

You could make a small nuc, with maybe 2-3 frames of brood and a queen, as well as a few thousand bees.  Make a 1-way exit on the hive in your house's foundation (cover up the other two entrances) and place the nuc entrance as close as possible to the outlet of the 1-way exit.  You won't be able to take the queen, or the comb but, a large majority (90% or so) of the worker bees will be there to help jump start the new hive.
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IndianaBrown
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2006, 10:26:23 PM »

I am new to the hobby, so I have no experience or knowledge of fume boards and the stuff you use on them.  I don't plan to ever use them myself, but it sounds like you may have a situation where they might come in handy.  

Maybe try putting a some of this near the entrances in your basement?
http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=274
Hopefully, if the queen reacts to it, they will abscond right into your hive body.
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Apis629
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 11:49:36 PM »

I use that repellant and, if the temperatures aren't in the mid 80s, in full sun, the stuff works about as well as smoke.  It may drive a few bees, but most will stay.  That's why I do most of my harvesting in August, when it's hot, rather than October.  Besides, a minor irritant such as that wouldn't get them to abscond.  I'd have to say that I think you're best bet would be to try the technique I mentioned in an earlier reply.

P.S. Sorry to shoot down your idea.  "Bee Go" might work better but, repellants will only drive the bees to the far corners, not make them abscond.  Besides "Bee Go" just about makes me vomit and "Honey Rober" smells the same, except with some cherry vomit scent added.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2006, 12:27:17 AM »

Buillding a small box with a bee escape to fit over the entrance is a good idean just make sure the escape only lets them come out.  The bee's should cluster or ball near the escape and can then be placed into a nearby nuc.   It's possible that the queen and the remaining bees will come out once the swarm level drops durastically but don't count on it.  

This procedure will take over a week to be fully successful and have a fresh brood frame w/eggs on standby to requeen with if another queen is not available.
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2006, 12:33:45 AM »

If you have cotton growing nearby and they have those boll weavel traps posted around it, they make great one way traps for bee exits. Of course I am recommending that you ask for one and not just steal it... wink
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bassman1977
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2006, 08:24:41 AM »

Sorry it took so long for the pictures but here they are



Thanks again.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2006, 12:05:27 PM »

Quote from: bassman1977
Sorry it took so long for the pictures


So you have cender blocks huh? If the hollows in the blocks are still hollow (Not filled with cement) then the bees will have started at the very top one. How high do these things go?
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2006, 12:38:33 PM »

OK here is what I am thinking. You put a hole in the mortar at the highest point the bees could be. You put some of that bee-gone stuff in that hole. At the bottom hole you have installed the bee escape that leads into a hive body. Perhaps this will also run the queen out (never used the stuff so I don't know). Might want a queen excluder on the bottom of the new hive to keep the queen from running away completely.
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Apis629
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2006, 01:55:32 PM »

WARNING: "Bee-Go" is some of the worst smelling stuff in the world (in my opinion) and, do not spill it on any clothes you're not willing to throw out.  The smell can linger for weeks.  Also, do not use it in the house for the same reason.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2006, 08:05:33 AM »

>WARNING: "Bee-Go" is some of the worst smelling stuff in the world (in my opinion) and, do not spill it on any clothes you're not willing to throw out.

It smells like vomit, except worse.

> The smell can linger for weeks.

Or years...

Honey-Robber smells like cherry vomit.  Smiley

Fischer's Bee Quick smells like almond extract.

Bullseye Bill on beesource has been experimenting with PDB (Para Dichlorol Beneze aka Paramoth) to drive the bees out of trees and houses with some success.
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Michael Bush
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bassman1977
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2006, 10:40:24 AM »

Thanks for the ideas.  I will explore some of them more.  Not sure I like the idea of vomit smell in my house for months or years so I'll try to avoid that.  I was thinking of the idea that Brian Bray suggested, just wasn't sure what I would have to do about the queen.  I would think that if you put a queen in the new hive right away, then the bees might want to kill her since she has a different pharamone.

Once I get an opportunity to build a contraption for this I will post my results.  If anything, it will be interesting.
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nbk
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 09:35:02 AM »

As I tend to work outside the box, I have a different view.  
Leave them.  You will have a source for swarms and they could prove to have resistances.  If the hive dies out due to diseases/pests just seal off the holes, no big loss as you did not pay for them like a Q package.  If the hive survives, is healthy, and productive for a long time it will throw off swarm after swarm each year giving you free Q packages.  If/when it dies out, seal it up then work on it at 'YOUR' leasure to get the wax and honey.
     If the bees are a problem (location, temperment) then the one way escape sounds good.  You can even try the old trick of drumming the bees out.  

   
     Sometimes I dont fight battles that will be super difficult or impossible to achieve victory.  If you dont like the conditions, dont fight this battle.
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nbk
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 11:42:47 PM »

I would strongly (very strongly) disagree about using PDB for bee removal.   I have only heard of using PARA DICHLORO BENZENE for wax moth control (on encapsulated stored frames or supers)  
I looked at a web site for the chemical compostion and found it is an insecticide!!! That might do a little more (like kill them, especially a queen who is resistant to fleeing a hive) than make the bees leave and it could leave dangerous chemcals in an enclosed space (the basement of bassman1977) for people to inhale!!!!!!
Im probibly overreacting a little but when life is involved why take the chance...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 http://www.paradichlorobenzene.com/
   
Technical Specs S P E C I F I C A T I O N NAME OF PRODUCT PARA DI CHLORO BENZENE
TRADE NAME FORMULA C6 H4 C12
MOLECULAR WEIGHT 147.01 CAS # 106-46-7
 PHYSICAL APPEARANCE - Free Flowing, White Flakes - Free Flowing, Crystals - Molten In ISO Containers

As Insecticidal Fumigant
Popular for Domestic Use Against Clothes Moths Germicide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One should always follow the instructions about chemicals (to the letter) especially poisons.  Michael please e-mail Bullseye Bill to warn him against experimentation with this insecticide.  Use chemicals for its intended use.
 
One big problem continually voiced by master beekeepers is misuse of chemicals.  This has lead to chemical resistances in parasites and diseases.  Please dont experiment unless you are a paid scientist or lab technician.  You do so at your (and others around you and your bees) peril..............................
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Apis629
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 12:03:33 AM »

On the topic of pesticide resistance.  If has been found that the general antibiotics administered in hives (e.g. Oxytetracycline=Terrmycin) has killed the bacteria that naturally would affect/limit the population of varroa mites.  I attended a Beekeeping Seminar yesterday with the Florida State Beekeepers' Association.  

Back on topic: I'd have to agree about only using pesticides only by thier label instructions.  Besides, if just not fumigation a super properly can kill the bees, how's dumping crystals into the hive going to help.   Just a look back: around the turn of the century (1900) beekeepers were using BUREIC ACID to fummigate bees out of supers.  PRODUCES A TOXIC GAS AND CAPABLE OF CHEMICAL BURNS.  I've seen that stuff burn through a copper pipe in 5 minutes!  Under no circumstances should anyone use potentially hasardous chemicals with any deviation from label instructions!
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Hi-Tech
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 12:08:20 AM »

my question is this....               "would we be better off today if no chemicals had been used with bees in the first place?'

I think...  yes.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 09:19:17 AM »

>I would strongly (very strongly) disagree about using PDB for bee removal. I have only heard of using PARA DICHLORO BENZENE for wax moth control (on encapsulated stored frames or supers)

If the bees can't get out, they will die.  But quite often the situation is that if I can't GET them out the homeowner will spray them with raid and they will die.

I have never tried the PDB. My preference is a straightforward cutout.  Cut the combs, brush the bees into the new box, tie the brood into frames.  I don't like vacuums because they kill a lot of bees too.  But if I couldn't do a cutout, I think I might have to get some PDB for the next time.  I actually don't use it at all, so I never have any.

>my question is this.... "would we be better off today if no chemicals had been used with bees in the first place?'

I have heard many of the bee scientists say the exact same thing.  If we hadn't treated for Varroa at all, we would no longer have a problem.  If we would stop treating for Tracheal mites, in a year or two we would no longer have a problem.

"The leading cause of problems is solutions." -- Severide's Law
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Michael Bush
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bassman1977
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2006, 11:34:06 PM »

Update on the problem...

They are gone from the area I was talking about.  It seems they have taken residency in the chimney (I have to get up there to know for sure).  

It makes me wonder if that was just a group of scouts (100s of them) or a regular swarm, looking for a home and decided against that location.

Well, I think what I will do about the chimney swarm, if that is what they are, is drop a line down the chimney, and raise a small bucket, which will hopefully scoop the comb (and the queen) on the way up.  I'll then put a nuc over the chimney opening to catch the field bees.
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