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Author Topic: Can't see eggs/larvae-Hope it's my eyes  (Read 5024 times)
rayb
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« on: May 13, 2006, 11:49:54 AM »

New hive installed April 10th and a week ago seemed to have good activity in and out and had 3 frames( both sides) reasonably filled with capped brood. Some capped honey and pollen, many wet looking cells. Outer 4 frames were not really touched yet.
Today, May 13th, looked like much of the capped areas had hatched ( only a ring of capped brood..the center area had hatched). But look as hard as I could I saw no eggs or larvae anywhere.There was what looked like one swarm cell on the bottom 20% of one frame.
Am feeding sugar water but they don't seem to be taking much.

Please tell me new queens take a break sometimes!!

Should I be concerned yet? Wait, I AM concerned!!!

Thanks for any suggestions.
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Ruben
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2006, 07:41:13 PM »

I have the same symptoms as you and was told by several experienced beeks that there is no queen in the hive. They said I most likely killed or injured her on the last inspection. I am going to let them raise the queen cell in my hive and see what happens. I started with two hives so I was going to take a frame of brood and add to this hive on my next inspection. Good luck with your hive!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2006, 07:41:16 PM »

Is there a queen?
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2006, 08:18:58 PM »

RayB:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but could you easily spot larva and eggs before??? If you have capped cells, the queen was there 15 days ago (give or take a few day)

Do you see any new QUEEN CELLS being constructed anywhere???

No matter what, get a strong sun behind your shoulders, use a good set of reading glasses 1.5 to 2.0 from the dollar store and you'll see either or both if they are there.

The queen taking a break is not common UNLESS there is simply NO ROOM to lay eggs, but I've seen her lay on undrawn cells and then workers building comb around the eggs.

Lastly, are your bees still as active as they should be - I doubt something happened that caused a queenless hive, capped cells, but lack of pheromone all at the same time.
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rayb
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2006, 07:07:29 AM »

Hi, I was able to see larvae with no problem before but never really saw the eggs ever. In Cincinnati the sun hasn't been shining much but will get a pair of those glasses to help see them if they are there.
I saw what looked like one swarm cell at the bottom of one frame but no queen cell that I could detect.
The activity at the hive entrance is greater than before and they seem to be flying OK. Good amount of pollen and capped honey(or sugar water-from the hive top feeder). Six out of the ten frames have some activity on them.
?IF I am queenless,and haven't seen a QUEEN cell, will the Swarm cell at the bottom take over?
Will they make a queen cell now?
How much time do I give them before they or I do something?

Thanks, Ray
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2006, 02:05:58 PM »

What are you seeing that you are calling a "swarm cell"?  Does it have larvae in it?  Is it capped?  is it a vertical cell or a horizontal cell?  Is is smooth or like a penut shell in texture?

If you are queenless or suspect a hive of being queenelss (as evidenced by no eggs or open brood), I would immediately give them a frame of eggs and open brood.  That way they have the resources to deal with the problem.  It may be they already HAVE raised a new queen that isn't laying yet.  This is actually likely, but not guarenteed.  Which is the reason for the eggs and brood.  That way if they DON'T have a queen they have the resources to raise one.
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Michael Bush
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rayb
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 02:52:24 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
What are you seeing that you are calling a "swarm cell"?  Does it have larvae in it?  Is it capped?  is it a vertical cell or a horizontal cell?  Is is smooth or like a penut shell in texture?

If you are queenless or suspect a hive of being queenelss (as evidenced by no eggs or open brood), I would immediately give them a frame of eggs and open brood.  That way they have the resources to deal with the problem.  It may be they already HAVE raised a new queen that isn't laying yet.  This is actually likely, but not guarenteed.  Which is the reason for the eggs and brood.  That way if they DON'T have a queen they have the resources to raise one.


The "swarm cell" is on the lower 20% of one frame, peanut shaped hanging verticaly and enclosed. If it is enclosed does that necessarily mean it has larva in it?

I will put a frame with eggs and open brood from the other established hive and see where it goes.

How long before I see evidence of the new queen if they raise a new one?

Thanks for everyones help. Will let you know what happens.  Ray
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 11:21:09 PM »

>The "swarm cell" is on the lower 20% of one frame, peanut shaped hanging verticaly and enclosed.

Usually swarm cells are hanging off the bottom.

> If it is enclosed does that necessarily mean it has larva in it?

Yes.  Or a pupa.

>I will put a frame with eggs and open brood from the other established hive and see where it goes.

Couldn't hurt.

>How long before I see evidence of the new queen if they raise a new one?

They will have a cell started in 48 hours.  They'll have it capped in five days and she'll probably emerge in about 10 days (from when you put the frame in).  In about 24 days you'll have a laying queen.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm
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rayb
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2006, 06:42:14 AM »

Michael, Thanks. Will check again soon and see what is happening and let you all know.

Ray
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rayb
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2006, 09:47:58 PM »

Update on Queenless!

On May 14th I took two frames of eggs,larvae and capped brood from the strong hive and put them in the "Queenless" hive

On May 20th. I saw ? 3 closed queen cells on the top of one frame.

Today, May 27th there was only one closed queen cell.

Question. Am I on track to getting my new queen? There were 3 queen cells last week and now only the one. Is this the way they go about electing the winner?

Please tell me we're getting closer to a new queen.

Thanks, Ray
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 11:17:53 PM »

It's not uncommon for the bees to preselect 1 queen cell and destroy the others when they are in a supercedure mode.  Feel Good, it worked just like it was suppose to.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2006, 10:59:01 AM »

> Am I on track to getting my new queen? T

Yes.
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Michael Bush
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Scott Derrick
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2006, 09:59:03 PM »

Don't know if you have a good digital camera with a macro feature but that is a good way to check them as well. I many time take a quick photo at a very high resolution and them zoom in on the frame when I take the photos back to my computer. It really give me far more information about the frame then I can see with my eye at the hive.

Scott
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rayb
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 10:26:09 PM »

Thanks everyone....hopefully we'll see the queen soon. Yes ,I do have a camera and think it has a close up feature. Good suggestion. I'll try it next week when I open it up again. I will update after the next inspection. Thanks, Ray
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Scott Derrick
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2006, 10:04:24 AM »

Hey Ray,

Make sure to post some pictures also. I"d love to see them.

Scott
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rayb
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 02:43:22 PM »

Quote from: rayb
Update on Queenless!

On May 14th I took two frames of eggs,larvae and capped brood from the strong hive and put them in the "Queenless" hive

On May 20th. I saw ? 3 closed queen cells on the top of one frame.

Today, May 27th there was only one closed queen cell.

Today ,May 29th, I took a few pictures to show the queen cell but when I got to where it was two days ago there was nothing but a vacant lot in the upper right hand corner. Please see first image.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid207/p03559f6f7bb75d9e82314c1f2272ef8d/eec70338.jpg

Second image is of this "queenless hive". We have transfered a total of 3 frames from our big hive so we have a reasonable population.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid207/p4b25931609830faf953800a5c7a7ce01/eec70030.jpg

Question...After the queen emerges, do they tear down her old cell right away ?

Thanks, Ray
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 02:55:12 PM »

Quote from: rayb

On May 20th. I saw ? 3 closed queen cells on the top of one frame.

y



3 queen cells On the top of frame? What are they doing there?

If I took a frame from hive I often see DRONE pupae on the top of frame.

Peanut size closed cell ? - Suits for drone pupa?

And the top corner of frame - It is last place where I may see queen cells or nothing else brood pupae. It is place for honey.

And now 2 weeks have gone when you give larva frame. If they started to make new queen they allready have some walking on frames. It takes about 10 days when first emercengy queen hatches.
.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 03:03:00 PM »

>Question...After the queen emerges, do they tear down her old cell right away ?

Sometimes.  It sounds as if the queen emerged and is that stage of mating prior to begining laying eggs.  I would recheck in 2 weeks and then inspect for eggs and larva.  If you have a new queen it should be evident at that time.  
Meantime it appears youo are doing everything necessary to keep the hive going.

This in another report of a queen being superceded almost immediately.  I'll bet the queen producer is using a lot of chemicals in his hive.  
Scan some of the other posting, especially in the Queen rearing and Disease and pest control sections.
I'd let the producer know that the result of using so many chemicals is making the bees supercede the queen as soon as eggs are available, that it is inhibiting the development of the hive and that you'll be looking for queen and package sources that use natural control methods.

Buy from sites that are have SMD or Feral resistant stock.
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2006, 03:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Brian D. Bray
>...you'll be looking for queen and package sources that use natural control methods.

Buy from sites that are have SMD or Feral resistant stock.


Feral resistant stock !  Kicking beginner to wolf's mouth  shocked
Just one queen is missing, not more.
.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2006, 12:31:51 AM »

Finsky,

The point is that in the USA we seem to be experiencing a deluge of packages where the queens are being superceded by the bees as soon as there is larva from which to raise a new queen.

I made a suggestion, true it's just one queen for him, but re-read a lot of the postings and I think you'll see that a crisis is beginning to loom in the USA.  There are just too many people experiencing the same problem for it to be an isolated event.
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SherryL
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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2006, 12:40:44 AM »

Brian, I think you make a valid point.  

I too had 1 of 6 packages I installed this spring go queenless.  The pictures I found (of the eggs) came from a blog where SHE describes 1 or her 2 hives going queenless.

How many others on this site have had this problem this spring?

Coincidence???
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2006, 01:01:43 AM »

Thats sounds like a good question for a topic of its own.
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rayb
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2006, 05:37:30 PM »

Quote from: rayb
Quote from: rayb
Update on Queenless!

On May 14th I took two frames of eggs,larvae and capped brood from the strong hive and put them in the "Queenless" hive

On May 20th. I saw ? 3 closed queen cells on the top of one frame.

Today, May 27th there was only one closed queen cell.


UPDATE........June 9th.......SHE'S BACK..We have eggs (I can see them finally with the reading glasses) and larvae. The process works but for a new guy I sure was worried.

Thank you everyone for your advice and support.

Ray
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Ruben
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2006, 07:15:13 PM »

Mine started laying June 4th, I know what you mean I was worried also but if it happens now I will just say oh well. Now with the drought we are having I just hope they have enough time to build up for winter.
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