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Author Topic: 5 lap penalty for agressive driving  (Read 2011 times)
beemaster
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« on: April 22, 2006, 10:29:57 PM »

Just wondering (from you Nascar fans) do you think a 5 lap penalty is TOO MUCH of a penalty for NON-SPECIFIC UNNECCESSARY ROUGHNESS during a race - here is the example and why I think it is too harsh if NO HARM IS DONE.

Kurt Busch (who I'm no fan of) got smashed up pretty good in an accident after another car rammed him. Lots of cars were involved and a red flag (all cars stop where they are) and after they restarted (under yellow - not during the race) Busch lightly bumped the other car JUST to show him he was NOT HAPPY about getting read ended by the other driver (who by the way was NOT penalized at all) Busch had to pull into the pits for 5 full laps - literally impossible to catch back up at almost any track under any condition, the only worse finish then being multiple laps down is to DNF "Do Not Finish" at all.

Busch didn't ram the other car hard, didn't incapacitate the other car from racing (not even cause it to operate differently than it would have after the accident) yet Busch has to sit in the pits 5 full laps as a penalty - a NEW FINE SYSTEM that Nascar has implemented.

My thought is this fine should be CASE RELATIVE - anything from a warning to 5 laps according to the extent of the anger/damage/etc. that the racer creates. 5 laps is good for one reason only, it makes all drivers think twice about unneccessary roughness - but does it make any sense that you should get the same penalty for lightly bumping a car or driving another car into the wall at 180mph???

Sometimes I think Nascar is loosing it. The whole 24,88,20,1 incident a few weeks ago where the 1 car was destroyed because he was a rookie playing slap-a-peepee with the big-boys. Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon received no fines or prnalties of any kind for putting Martin Truex into the inner and outer wall, but a tap on the bumper from Busch sits him out for 5 laps - I just don't get it.

I can't wait to see all the drivers in the PENALTY BOX as they are already calling it - it will surely lessen the DURING THE RACE peeing contests, but wait until the helmets come off - oh man will it get nasty then.
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manowar422
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2006, 06:49:19 AM »

Quote
Busch didn't ram the other car hard, didn't incapacitate the other car from racing (not even cause it to operate differently than it would have after the accident) yet Busch has to sit in the pits 5 full laps as a penalty - a NEW FINE SYSTEM that Nascar has implemented.


Nascar has had a need for penalties for these retaliatory "bumps"
for some time. I agree about the fact that 5 laps is kinda severe
but at least it's a start.

As aero sensitive, as a cup car is nowadays, even the slightest
sheet metal damage makes a huge difference in handling out
on the track. (you know this John!!!)

IMHO Nascar needs to require two lights on the rear of the cars, one
blue (to show the driver is depressing the gas pedal) and one red.
(to show the driver is depressing the brake pedal) This would make
the crashes during restarts less damaging and have fewer of them.

Technology has made the cars so equal now that drivers seem to be
more easily frustrated having to drive in all that traffic. I remember
years ago that restarts late in the race consisted of maybe 6 cars
which left the rest of the field quickly behind and therefore not a
factor in the end of a race. Recently drivers have to contend with
half the field still being "in" the race in the last 10 laps.

The sport of auto racing has changed astronomically in the past 20
years. I've witnessed hundreds of wrecks that they (the drivers)
just walk away from now, where 20 years ago they were dying or
suffered career-ending injuries. These kids know no fear Sad

The so called "young guns" of the sport haven't a clue about manners
either. I'm for settling this kinda stuff in the garage after the race wink
Slamming into someone while under the yellow is childish and petty
and I think the revocation of a number of championship points would
be a more reasonable penalty.

Perhaps films could be reviewed after races and the penalty's severity
be determined by a committee of unbiased fans cheesy  Tongue
kinda like the "delayed" penalty in hockey, you get to go on with the
race but the situation will be dealt with before the next race weekend.

I also have a problem with drivers who will not yield the groove of
the track when the leaders are coming up on them during the race.
This kinda stuff was not happening in the good ol' days either.
I understand about the "lucky dog" rule or blocking for your team
mate, but just forcing someone to "go around" your car when your
finishing spot in the race is not going to be affected, is just stupid.

I guess I'll end my scattered thoughts with the theory that maybe
the reason these drivers act this way is because their bad behaviour
will probably not cause someones death. In years past, drivers
were just as concerned about other drivers as they were about
taking care of their equipment. If you bumped someones car from
behind and sent them into the wall, chances were that that driver
was not going to be back behind the wheel any time soon...
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Robo
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2006, 07:16:14 AM »

Nascar is becoming a judged sport just like figure skating.  That's why I don't watch as much anymore.  Let's get back to a competitive sport and let the drivers handle it themselves.  In all my years of racing,  I can only remember a couple of occasions where rough riding had to be addressed.  

Let's face it, it's all about money.  The sponsors want their cars on the track, not behind pit wall.  If a drive knows that if he pee'd off enough drivers, he will be a marked man, than he will think twice.
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beemaster
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2006, 10:29:06 AM »

I agree, I know a bit about AERO but PHONEX is not exactly an aero track, it runs more like a short track then a super speed way. The trick at Phoenix is getting every drop of gas you can into the tank and using it wisely.

Safety equipment has indeed changed Nascar more than any other sport - I honestly believe it is nearly impossible to get killed in a Cup car today, that between car technology and soft walls and (whether you are for it or against it) restrictor plates.

So it does get down to what happens between drivers and teams.

When you have 50 cars qualify at EVERY TRACK and you have less than .5 seconds between the fastest and slowest cars, you surely do have ONE component that makes the difference, the driver.

This coming week we will be at Talladega, a track I have driven on the simulator more than any other track in 6 years of simulator racing. I have half a dozen car setups for the track, based on how well I qualify and including 3 car setups for qualifying according to weather conditions set at the track - yes simulators take EVERYTHING into account and toss in REAL-WORLD PHYSICS and if I have a choice of qualifying first in a bad aero car or qualifying last in a good aero car, I'll take the latter.

There is no feeling on Earth like tracking a group of cars and getting swallowed up by their draft, becoming part of a TRAIN of vehicles which act as one large beast slicing through the air. The difference can be astounding, as much as 15mph difference between draft cars and lone cars.

The mastery of the sport is staying behind the lead driver (or better said behind the car in front of you - even if he is tenth in line) and listening for the quiet of the draft, almost feel the draft pull away and snap back in place if you fail to hold position perfectly - it truly does feel like an OBE experience as you grab or lose the draft.

But again, there are few tracks where aero plays a vital role in the race outcome and Phoenix is not one of those tracks.

I would agree with a 1 to 5 lap penalty where EACH incident is judged AFTER the race and added to the drivers finish position then - to fine him during the race can cause a nut-job to be on the track, where if a driver knew he screwed up, he may try to redeem himself if given to the end of the race before receiving his penalty.

This also gives Nascar time to truly evaluate the impact that the penalty created. In this weekend's case, 5 lap penalty was a joke and unfair - I don't care which racer it was, you don't literally take a man out of the race (which 5 laps does at any track) unless you have all the data and impact he caused. So let him get a special flag showing he has caused a aggressive judgment ruling, and leave it at that until the race is done - then present him with the penalty. I think this is the fairest and mentally, it would keep me driving a bit more sane, rather than have to await 140 more laps BEFORE finding out what penalty I received.
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manowar422
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2006, 12:21:01 PM »

Quote
Nascar is becoming a judged sport just like figure skating. That's why I don't watch as much anymore. Let's get back to a competitive sport and let the drivers handle it themselves. In all my years of racing, I can only remember a couple of occasions where rough riding had to be addressed.


Robo,
would you not consider yourself an "old school" type?
Do you not think these kids nowadays have a more
aggressive driving style and give less thought about
putting another driver into the wall to gain a spot?

What ever happened to drivers using their driving skills
rather than their grills to make a pass?

Your right, money and endorsments have a great influence on
what goes on during the course of a race and just maybe,
until this changes, my yelling about, it falls on deaf ears. angry
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randydrivesabus
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2006, 06:40:48 PM »

dont you think a better penalty would be for the first offense in the race a drive down pit road, the second offense a drive down pit road with a 10 second stop in your pit, etc. you get what i mean.
monetary penalties dont mean much when you've got sponsors paying so many millions a year.
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 12:06:55 AM »

I too am old school and as an ex driver on the local circuit I still feel that rubbin' is racin'. I watch less and less racing because they have transformed it from an "only the toughest survive" to a gentlemen’s sport. If I wanted to see gentlemen compete, I would watch golf...
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