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Author Topic: fumagillin B  (Read 5189 times)
BEE C
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« on: April 19, 2006, 05:33:05 PM »

Hey, I started out two four pound packages from Australia a few days ago.  I was told to simply treat them with fumagillin B  due to stress from travel that might lower their immune systems making them susceptible to nosema.  I emptied out the contents of medicine and weighed it.  The directions said it was enough for 5-6 doses for packages.  So I divided the total weight into 5.2 which turned out to be 4.3 grams.  I added this to the sugar syrup when it was lukewarm in the frame feeder.  I am totally new to this and was wondering what others use with packages.  Should I use something else? For varroa mites soon?  I am interested in the small cell concept, as well as using natural tinctures of herbs instead of pharmaceutikills.  Does anyone out there use both???  I am not interested in anything other than keeping my colonies as heathy in the LONG TERM as possible.  Converting to small cell sounds great, and now before I expand colonies might be the time to try it, but I don't want to stop using medicines just yet.  DOES ANYONE USE BOTH METHODS??  I know this is a very divisive topic, is there anyone using the middle path....
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2006, 07:37:42 PM »

> I am totally new to this and was wondering what others use with packages.

I've never used anything with packages except sugar syrup to get them started.

> Should I use something else?

Not in my opinion.

> For varroa mites soon?

You will have to DO something for Varroa mites eventually.  You need to decide what you think you want to do.  If you want to try something natural like small cell or a treatement of some kind.

> I am interested in the small cell concept, as well as using natural tinctures of herbs instead of pharmaceutikills. Does anyone out there use both???

There may be a few using something in addition to small cell during regression.  I know of no one using any treatment when they are regressed.  That's the whole point.  You don't need to treat at all.

>DOES ANYONE USE BOTH METHODS??

If you want the least residual, most effective treatment while regressing to small cell, I suggest oxalic acid vapor.

Most people while regressing are using powdered sugar or drone trapping.
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Michael Bush
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 08:11:18 PM »

For more details about all kinds of diseases and pests:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm
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Michael Bush
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BEE C
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 04:04:37 AM »

Hey Bush,  thanks for the link.  Did you go to small cell I assume?  Did you lose hive while regressing?  I have read some posts suggesting that varroa mites become a non issue once small cells are done.  It seems too good to be true!  but makes sense.  I really don't like the idea of our manipulating bees to produce more honey at the expense of their natural defenses.  Using so many drugs and pharmaceutikills seems like factory farming to me, kind of kills the connection to nature.  I start work for my instructor tomorrow at his apiary.  He has 1000+ hives and uses most for pollination contracts.  I asked him about small cell and he said there was no evidence that it helps, no university research to back it.  He has a Phd in apiculture and is a recognized authority in our province, teaching at a local university and on the honey council board.  I didn't want to p him off because he seems so adament about it, but do you know where I can get my hands on some cell size research?  I don't have a lot of resources right now but I am definitely going to give it a try once I have more hives to see for myself.
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Finsky
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 06:07:29 AM »

Quote from: BEE C
I have read some posts suggesting that varroa mites become a non issue once small cells are done.  It seems too good to be true!  but makes sense.  .


I am very opposite opinion with Michael.  Plenty of experienced beekepers have lost their hives when they have tried small cell. There are reseaches that small cell cannot protect against varroa.

Small cells work if you have africanized bees. No authority recommend small cell or regression against varroa.  - I have had varroa since 1982.
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amymcg
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 07:18:46 AM »

Dee Lusby has been keeping small cell for a LONG time.  

You can try reading her writings here:  http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2006, 09:38:10 AM »

Quote from: amymcg
Dee Lusby has been keeping small cell for a LONG time.  


I know many who have kept very SHORT time.

Here is one story from British forum:

"Well I guess the bees that have to die, have to die sooner or later.
Just a little comment about small cell beekeeping: It doesn't seem to work. I started a trial in the summer of 2000 and lost them all after 3 years. A friend of mine risked even more and lost all his bees (about 150 hives) and his wife as she walked out on him when disaster struck and the cash ran out. Recently he was working in a factory putting electrical goods in boxes. What could he do? He had been a beekeeper all his life and wasn't trained to anything else.
Be careful about what you read on the Internet and try to distingiush between actual facts and wishful thinking!

Best regards
Norton.
Location: Larnaka, Cyprus "

It was researched in Sweden and in New Zeland how small cell protect against varroa. They found protection at all.
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amymcg
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 07:44:40 AM »

So people who tried it for a short time have more reliable information than people who have been doing it for a long time?

Quote
Be careful about what you read on the Internet and try to distingiush between actual facts and wishful thinking!


I agree with that statement.  I think asking people who are succesful with this practice would be the way to go.[/code]
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 08:05:57 AM »

>Hey Bush, thanks for the link. Did you go to small cell I assume?

Yes.

> Did you lose hive while regressing?

My first try I started late and the mites were already bad.  So I used Apistan that fall, and the mites were resitant to the Apistan.  I lost all of them, not from regression, but from Apistan resitant mites.

After that I've had no more than normal losses from mice and small clusters.

> I have read some posts suggesting that varroa mites become a non issue once small cells are done.

That is my experience.

> It seems too good to be true! but makes sense.

Yes it does.

> I really don't like the idea of our manipulating bees to produce more honey at the expense of their natural defenses. Using so many drugs and pharmaceutikills seems like factory farming to me, kind of kills the connection to nature.

Exactly.

> I asked him about small cell and he said there was no evidence that it helps, no university research to back it. He has a Phd in apiculture and is a recognized authority in our province, teaching at a local university and on the honey council board. I didn't want to p him off because he seems so adament about it, but do you know where I can get my hands on some cell size research?

No one seems seriously interested in it.  All the negative stuff is very short term (like less than a month) very small scale (like one hive) and does not in any way regress the bees or follow Dee Lusby's proposed methods.

Most of them seem to involve AHB because they build smaller cells. Here's a couple of studies:

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf?access=ok#search='study%20cell%20size%20AHB'

According to this mathematical model, if you shorten the precapping time by 8 hours or the post capping time by 8 hours it's enough to stablize the Varroa population:

http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroa/ModellingBiologicalApproaches.pdf

I've consitently observed a day shorter precapping and a day shorter post capping times.  Do you own study.  Set up an observation hive and mark the cells when the queen lays and note when they are capped and when tthey emerge.  Everyone I know of who has done it has had the same results.

>I am very opposite opinion with Michael. Plenty of experienced beekepers have lost their hives when they have tried small cell. There are reseaches that small cell cannot protect against varroa.

I have yet to see any research that regressed the bees (actually got bees form smaller cells), and kept them for any length of time.  All of them I've seen would have been predicted to fail by anyone who knows anything about small cell beekeeping.

>Dee Lusby has been keeping small cell for a LONG time.

Coming up on 20 years I believe.  Of course the first 16 or 17 I didn't hear anyone say she had Africanized bees, but now that's the excuse.  Many of us have been doing it five years or more.

>Be careful about what you read on the Internet and try to distingiush between actual facts and wishful thinking!

I have never asked anyone to take anything on faith.  Monitor the mite levels and you'll see if it's working.  Measuring results is not wishful thinking.
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Michael Bush
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Zoot
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2006, 10:23:28 PM »

MB,

Forgive me for digressing Bee C, but how does the apparent success of small cell use in the apiary environment jive with the decimation of the feral population?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2006, 07:22:31 AM »

>Forgive me for digressing Bee C, but how does the apparent success of small cell use in the apiary environment jive with the decimation of the feral population?

The problem is that this question typically comes with several assumptions.


The first assumption is that the feral bees have all but died out. I have not found this to be true. I see a lot of feral bees and I see more every year.


The second assumption is that when some of the feral bees did die, that they all died from Varroa mites. A lot of things happened to the bees in this country including Tracheal mites, and viruses. I'm sure some of the survival from some of this is a matter of selection. The ones that couldn't withstand them died.


The third assumption is that huge numbers of mites hitchhiking in on robbers can't overwhelm a hive no matter how well they handle Varroa. Tons of crashing domestic hives were bound to take a toll. Even if you have a fairly small and stable local population of Varroa, a huge influx from outside will overwhelm a hive.


The fourth assumption is that a recently escaped swarm will build small cell. They will build something in between. For many years most of the feral bees were recent escapees. It's only recently I've seen a shift in the population to be the dark bees rather than the Italians that look like they are recent. Large bees (bees from 5.4mm foundation) build an in between sized comb, usually around 5.1mm. So these recently swarmed domestic bees are not fully regressed.


The fifth assumption is that small cell beekeepers don't believe there is also a genetic component to the survival of bees with Varroa. Obviously there are bees that are more or less hygienic and more or less able to deal with many pests and diseases. Whenever a new disease or pest comes along the ferals have to survive them without any help.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2006, 08:55:34 AM »

Quote from: BEE C
For varroa mites soon?  ....


Australia has no varroa. If you hive rob some another hive it will get a good load varroa.  But not be nervous with varroa issue this summer.
.
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Zoot
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2006, 12:41:59 PM »

MB,

Actually, very few assumptions here so far mainly due to being away from the subject for so long. Pretty much going by observation and by perusing the posts of several forums which has been extremely eye openning.

For what it's worth the visibility of bees in our clover (usually about 4 acres) has increased from virtually none to fairly numerous over the last few years. This during a period of slow decline in the numbers of beekeepers in the county (I don't count the hobby operations in and around Washington DC as they are too far away). On the surface at least this would seem to suggest an increasing feral population that is becoming immune to various parasites.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2006, 11:07:25 PM »

>On the surface at least this would seem to suggest an increasing feral population that is becoming immune to various parasites.

This is exactly what is happening and will happen in managed hives if we, as beekeepers, let nature take its course.  The obvious solution to the Varroa mite, over time, is developed resistance just as what happened with trachea mites.  Towards that end we should manage our bees in a manner that enables them to develop a resistance instead of managing them in a manner that allows the mites to develop a resistance to the treatments.  

Smaller comb, drone comb, screened bottom boards, application of natural occurring chemicals all are a part of the answer.  After researching on the Fungus I believe the proper way to apply it is to use the grape leaves themselves, letting the bees remove leaves left in the hive and dusting themselves with the fungus.   As for Oxalic acid the best natural application process I can come up with is using Rhubarb leaves  to cool the smoke in my smoker.  An idea I got from posts in these forums.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2006, 07:56:07 AM »

>if we, as beekeepers, let nature take its course. The obvious solution to the Varroa mite, over time, is developed resistance just as what happened with trachea mites.

But if we keep propping up bees that DON'T have resistance with treatments we will just as easily lose all those gains.  Everytime someone uses grease patties or menthol to treat tracheal mites instead of getting bees that are resistant they contribute to the problem.

The same for Varroa.  If we keep treating we keep this from happening or actually reverse the prgress by perpetuating bees that cannot deal with the problem.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2006, 09:53:54 AM »

Getting back to fumagillin-B, I recently e-mailed the manufacturer as I do not own a scale thats is accurate to grams,and the measurment thier representative gave me was 1/2 Tablespoon per 4 liters of 2 to 1 syrup. My question was answered very quickly by e-mailing them at this site      [url]willy@medivet.ca.[url]
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BEE C
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2006, 12:56:46 AM »

Thanks for the posts on this.  I had forgotten about this post until I was researching my fall fumagillin B dose.  I have a varroa problem now probably due to a neighbour who is using luck, no small cell or sbb or drugs.  Next spring I am starting out some small cell, to do an experiment.  I will be using fumi B for nosema and formic and oxalyic acid as well, but if I see less mites on the small cell by next fall I will skip the fall medications.  I know others wouldn't do this with small cell, but nothing i've read suggests it hurts the bees, as they regress.  (other than opinions of those who are anti drug)  I guess I am just overly cautious.  I switched to sbb for my hives and will be keeping with those in future, doesn't make sense not to.  As I monitor the small cell, I should see a drop in mite levels, and will treat accordingly.  Thanks to those who shared their opinion on this topic, or links.  As a newbiekeeper, I have found the arguments civil and constructive, not to mention informative.  Steve.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2006, 06:29:04 AM »

>I have a varroa problem now probably due to a neighbour who is using luck, no small cell or sbb or drugs.

Actually you'd probably have a Varroa problem anyway.  Everyone I know not on small cell has Varroa.  If nothing is done to control them on large cell they will kill the hive.

> Next spring I am starting out some small cell, to do an experiment. I will be using fumi B for nosema and formic and oxalyic acid as well, but if I see less mites on the small cell by next fall I will skip the fall medications.

Sounds like a lot of chemicals for small cell.  IMO you MIGHT need something for the varroa the first year while you're regressing.  You probably won't need anything else, and after they are regressed you shouldn't need anything.

> I know others wouldn't do this with small cell, but nothing i've read suggests it hurts the bees, as they regress.

Wouldn't do which?  Use the chemcials?  You are correct.  Stop using chemicals?  That would be the purpose in the first place.

The bees are not stressed at all as they regress if you simply put a package on small cell in the first place or feed small cell into the brood nest gradually as I would anyway to prevent swarming.  If you use the SHAKEDOWN method you might find they get very stressed.  It's the shakedown that's stressful, not the regression.
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Michael Bush
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Ginger Bush
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2006, 12:49:20 PM »

Michael,

On another thread you asked why I wanted to treat if I want to go organic. But after reading this and another thread about varroa, it seems you understand the reasons for treating.

I'm confused by your responses. Please explain and thanks.
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