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Author Topic: Pollen in frames of dead colony!  (Read 1899 times)
EOHenry
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« on: April 08, 2006, 12:15:04 AM »

This past week I have been cleaning out my 2 hives I lost this past winter as the weather finally got above 40 for a few days.  Not as many dead bees in boxes as I thot I would find.  About half of them were on bottom board and rest clustered or stuck inside cells close together.  There was alot of capped honey left in both colonies.  I'm wondering if my remaining bees or the 2 packages I have coming will use the pollen that is left in the brood frames or just the honey.  The brood frames look quite dark and am wondering if I should scrap them out or put new bees on them.? Or just move them out towards the outsides of boxes and use last years honey frames in middle for brood cells.
  The last day I was cleaning out the last brood box, the temp got up to about 50F.  I noticed 1 bee and then another and soon several bees getting into the boxes I was done with and also the one I was working on. I determined they were from my remaining hive which was 50 yards away from where I was working. I finished quickly and put tools away, but before I could get cleaned out hives in garage, There were hundreds of bees around and in the boxes.  I left them until dark and brought them in.  I checked my surviving hive and there was alot of activity in and out of it, so I'm sure those were my bees in the dead boxes.
  Questions:  Should I switch the bottom box with top box this coming week when it is expected to get into low 60's?  and then treat for AFB at that time?  My 2 pkg are to be delivered following week, treat them for AFB soon after hiveing them?

Thanx!!
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2006, 01:55:53 AM »

Quote from: EOHenry
There was alot of capped honey left in both colonies.  !!


I is not normal that colony dies in the middle of food. It sounds like tracheal mite.

If you no not know where bees died it is not wise to give frames to new bees.

I do not know in what temperature tracheal mite dies. If mites are dead, you may give capped honey frames to nucs : one capped frame and others foundations. Not too much food!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2006, 09:25:49 AM »

> Questions: Should I switch the bottom box with top box this coming week when it is expected to get into low 60's?

I seldom if ever switch boxes.  But you do need to take steps to prevent swarming.

> and then treat for AFB at that time?

Why?  Do you think you had AFB?  I see no reason to suspect that.

> My 2 pkg are to be delivered following week, treat them for AFB soon after hiveing them?

I never do.  Do you take antibiotics when you're not sick?
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Michael Bush
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EOHenry
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2006, 11:01:14 AM »

I was told to treat for AFB every year as a precautionary measure.  My other hives died off from mites I believe as I found many of them on bottom board.
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Finsky
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2006, 02:29:14 PM »

Quote from: EOHenry
I was told to treat for AFB every year as a precautionary measure.  My other hives died off from mites I believe as I found many of them on bottom board.


OK, they they are plenty in autum they bite too many bees and they are in bad condition.

Then you can use all frames which are good.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2006, 08:39:05 PM »

You would have spent your time and money better treating for mites that you did have instead of AFB that you didn't have.   Sad  Most of the experts now say that using Terramycin to treat for AFB when you don't have it is a bad idea.  Of course it was a good idea to do treat with it when I quit doing treating with it 29 years ago. Smiley
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Michael Bush
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EOHenry
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2006, 09:00:04 PM »

OK!   I won't treat for AFB anymore and I did treat for mites last fall.  Maybe not the right stuff.  I used menthol oil in sugar/shortening mixture.
But my question remains unanswered, will the new bees use the left over pollen or should I just scrape all the old comb out of the brood frames and let the new bees start over agan.  I don't know how old the frames are as I bought them as a nuc last year form another BK.  I decided to buy pkg this year hoping I won't have as bad a mite problem this year.

Hey Finsky, when do I put the full honey supers on the new bees?  I have 2 almost full deep supers left from hives that died.

Thanx,
Henry
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2006, 02:37:11 PM »

>I did treat for mites last fall. Maybe not the right stuff. I used menthol oil in sugar/shortening mixture.

That is useful against tracheal mites.  Your biggest problem is probably Varroa mites.  If you want to control varroa mites naturally, that's one undertaking, but if you want to treat, there are many things that help, at least some.  Powdered sugar, sucracide, FGMO, Thymol.  I'd recommend Oxalic acid.  It seems to be the most effective and the least amount of residual problems.

>But my question remains unanswered, will the new bees use the left over pollen or should I just scrape all the old comb out of the brood frames and let the new bees start over agan.

I'd give them the frames as is.

>I decided to buy pkg this year hoping I won't have as bad a mite problem this year.

Hoping has never been a very effective deterant. Wink
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2006, 03:08:22 PM »

Quote from: EOHenry

Hey Finsky, when do I put the full honey supers on the new bees?  I have 2 almost full deep supers left from hives that died.


When you hives are so big that you need to add 3th box, so you put empty box on, and you put honey box lowest. You scrab capping open. Bees transform honey to top box.  

You may give foundation box on and bees like to use old honey when they draw combs. So you may put whole box of honey under brood area.

Or you put 2 scrabed frames in the middle of brood area. When they are clean and have partly brood,  do it again.  I prefer to give them bit by bit . But don't give then when nectar flow is on. And don't give is it takes egg laying area from queen.
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Robo
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2006, 03:58:40 PM »

But my question remains unanswered, will the new bees use the left over pollen or should I just scrape all the old comb out of the brood frames and let the new bees start over agan.
Give them the way they are and let them have a head start.  Don't make them start from scratch.  If they don't want the pollen, they will remove it without destrying the comb.

I decided to buy pkg this year hoping I won't have as bad a mite problem this year.

Hoping ain't going to help with Varroa, your bees will get them even if they don't come with them.  I'd be putting my hoping on not getting SHB with the package.  Packages are a good way to get your apiary infested with SHB.
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Finsky
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2006, 04:05:54 PM »

Quote from: Robo

Hoping ain't going to help with Varroa, your bees will get them even if they don't come with them.  


Difficult to understand why varroa kill hives. There are so much sure advices how to handle varroa.  I guess that beekeepers do not act in time and so it will happen.

Perhaps hope is worse enemy than varroa.
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Robo
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2006, 04:25:52 PM »

Quote from: Finsky

Difficult to understand why varroa kill hives. There are so much sure advices how to handle varroa.


I believe there are many reasons.

1) A lot of new beekeepers don't understand the cycles of the varroa and wait until it is too late in the season and find themselves vastly infected when it it too late to overcome.

2) A lot of "wishful hoping" on ineffective treatments.  There yearns that desire to find the ultimate "so-called natural" treatment.  That sometime appears to be working because the user so has there heart set on it.  When you don't have varroa epidemic, any treatment will appear to work.

3) Seems like a lot of folks need to learn for themselves the hard way.

4) I also believe a lot of varroa killed hives are chalked up to "bad weather".  WHich is unfortunate since they don't change their ways in the future.   I cn remember growing up (pre0-varroa and pre-global warming wink)and my Dad had 100 or so hives, never did any special winter treatment (wrapping, entrance reducing, etc) and on a bad year he would loose less than 10%.  Now a days you hear of 40,50,60% losses.

Since switching to oxalic acid 3 years ago,  my winter losses have been less than 5%.  I also have 2 TBHs that I did not treat at all last year and they are blistering this Spring.  I know you are not a believer in natural cell size,  but I will continue to try it on a few hives as Michael has described.
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2006, 05:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Robo
Quote from: Finsky

  Now a days you hear of 40,50,60% losses.


I have had many bad varroa cases and it blow upp when wintering bees should emerge.  I handle mites so that next summer they cannot reach harmful level.  It helps any more if mites have sucked wintering bees.

1987 I got medicin from Germany (perizin) when varroa come to our area. I offered it to my best friend. He has 60 hives fo winter.  He said "No thanks. Let's look next time". He lost 30 hives.

Robo, if you get African genes to your hive, I belive that they handle varroa. Take an empty hive to Arizona area and wait. Soon you have small cell bees.  Tongue
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