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Author Topic: Permacomb  (Read 1719 times)
Understudy
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« on: March 27, 2006, 12:42:33 AM »

Hi ,

I just ordered 30 frames of permacomb. I am looking to have a few questions answered here.
The reasons I am buying it:
1. SHB issue. I want those little wannabe scarab beetles gone. If they can't chew through the walls as larvae they can't make a home here.
2. Varroa Mites. I have a few, I can't say it's an infestation or even a problem but it could end up that way.
3. I don't want to have to treat with chemicles.

The questions I want answered.
1. I understand that you can melt bees wax on them to make the 4.9 cells. I would like a detailed description on how to do this. I have read several other threads on other forums they a lack a cohesive detail for idiots like me.
2. I have honey b healthy should I use this with a wax dip?
3. I have frames with brood in the existing hives (a nuc and a deep), what should I do with them?
4. What about drone cells with no large cells I won't have any. I would prefer to have some friendly drone vs AHB drones in the area.  So how do I get drone and for that matter queen cells when I have 10 frames of permacomb in a box?
5. Enlighten me as to other issues I may have left out or not been aware of. Basically both of my hives are showing huge growth signs, So I want to transfer the nuc to a 10 frame medium and the super to 2 mediums.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 03:54:52 AM »

I feel that you try to renew beekeeping too much too soon.  Tongue

Bees will not listen what you want.
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amymcg
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 05:50:45 AM »

Brendan,

Mike Bush will be able to answer all your questions since this is exactly what he does.  I'm surprised he's not awake yet.
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Jack Parr
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 06:34:15 AM »

Understudy, IMO you should become very familiar with the bee hive enviroment before you launch yourself in different concepts other than standard as practiced today. I would say that at least one year and a lot of reading would be helpful for a fairly good understanding of the hive enviroment. Maybe more than one year. This beekeeping business has no shortage of experimenters as you will learn as you study more. Going into fast forward is risky because we are dealing with nature here, not programable micro chips.  wink

You can use the known IPM methods for verroa control and they will work if you follow through with all the procedures in a timely manner. There are some new soft chemical verroa control products coming in the market that look promising for the future.

And that's what it's about, the future, unknown to U. But what is known is standard beekeeping practices and I would stick to that for awhile before trying to make your bees convert to a different style.

Frankly I couldn't get anyone at LSU to even discuss small cell, and those guys lives are intertwined with bees and their keeping.

Good luck though if you persist in moving into an alternate life style. Tongue
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Understudy
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 08:37:34 AM »

Boy am I gonna take a hint.

Maybe I need to give some more information to be helpful.
The population on both boxes is getting to the swarm stage. The swarm cells are starting to form. While I initally thought it was going to be a supercedure it is definitly going into a swarm cell setup.

I could move the nuc box frames into a deep with standard cell foundation, because as I understand it you shouldn't mix permacomb and foundation frames.

The super I could add one medium with the 10 permacomb frames on top of the existing deep but again I had read not to mix.

I am still not thrilled with having to increase the size of the hives without making sure that I have better control of the SHBs and mites. I am worried that if these expand so will the problem and while it is managable  now I would like to keep it that way or reduce it to almost non existant. Because what is managable at this nice level may not be so managable as the hives expand.

Also from what I have read on the wax dipping technique for permacomb, this takes practice. I figure I would start practicing now because when the summer hits I better be good at it.

So I will take a step back but I still want to get the questions answered because I am trying to be pre emptive and not ask these questions at the last minute.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2006, 07:13:24 AM »

>1. I understand that you can melt bees wax on them to make the 4.9 cells. I would like a detailed description on how to do this. I have read several other threads on other forums they a lack a cohesive detail for idiots like me.

I've posted a detailed description many times.  I don't have one handy.  The essentials are that you need to heat the PermaComb to 200 F (it melts at 220 F) and dip it in 212 F wax (wax in a double boiler).  Then shake off the excess.  It's not complicated.  Just messy and time consuming.  You have to wait for the wax to run in (the bubbles to run out) wait for the wax to run out.  Shake it good and then put it in the frame rest of a box, upside down so it can finish draining.

>2. I have honey b healthy should I use this with a wax dip?

It would be a waste all the way around.  Wax dipped they are perfectly accepted already and the essential oils would evaporate off in the hot wax.

>3. I have frames with brood in the existing hives (a nuc and a deep), what should I do with them?

I'd probably put the Permacomb in the brood nest in between the deeps.  As soon as there is some brood in it, you can move it (and the queen) above an excluder in a medium box.  Then when the brood has emerged below you can harvest that honey.

>4. What about drone cells with no large cells I won't have any. I would
prefer to have some friendly drone vs AHB drones in the area.

The PermaComb is short.  They will build the drone comb on the bottom of the frames.  You can also supplement this with an empty frame in the between drawn comb and they will build what they want.

> So how do I get drone and for that matter queen cells when I have 10 frames of permacomb in a box?

The bees build the queen cells on the PermaComb the same way they do on old brood comb.  They build an annex on the side of a cell and float the worker out with royal jelly.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Understudy
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2006, 04:42:48 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>1. I understand that you can melt bees wax on them to make the 4.9 cells. I would like a detailed description on how to do this. I have read several other threads on other forums they a lack a cohesive detail for idiots like me.

I've posted a detailed description many times.  I don't have one handy.  The essentials are that you need to heat the PermaComb to 200 F (it melts at 220 F) and dip it in 212 F wax (wax in a double boiler).  Then shake off the excess.  It's not complicated.  Just messy and time consuming.  You have to wait for the wax to run in (the bubbles to run out) wait for the wax to run out.  Shake it good and then put it in the frame rest of a box, upside down so it can finish draining.

Do you melt the wax and pour it into the permacomb and then shake the permacomb or do you place the wax on a baking sheet and place the permacomb flat on the baking sheet? Or is there some other way?
Quote from: Michael Bush

>2. I have honey b healthy should I use this with a wax dip?

It would be a waste all the way around.  Wax dipped they are perfectly accepted already and the essential oils would evaporate off in the hot wax.

>3. I have frames with brood in the existing hives (a nuc and a deep), what should I do with them?

I'd probably put the Permacomb in the brood nest in between the deeps.  As soon as there is some brood in it, you can move it (and the queen) above an excluder in a medium box.  Then when the brood has emerged below you can harvest that honey.

Neat idea I like that.

Quote from: Michael Bush

>4. What about drone cells with no large cells I won't have any. I would
prefer to have some friendly drone vs AHB drones in the area.

The PermaComb is short.  They will build the drone comb on the bottom of the frames.  You can also supplement this with an empty frame in the between drawn comb and they will build what they want.

So you mix permacomb and foundation frames?

Quote from: Michael Bush

> So how do I get drone and for that matter queen cells when I have 10 frames of permacomb in a box?

The bees build the queen cells on the PermaComb the same way they do on old brood comb.  They build an annex on the side of a cell and float the worker out with royal jelly.

Ahh so the reason a queen cell looks like a peanut is because the larva is floating out further in the cell?

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 08:43:12 PM »

>Do you melt the wax and pour it into the permacomb and then shake the permacomb or do you place the wax on a baking sheet and place the permacomb flat on the baking sheet? Or is there some other way?

I heat the PermaComb and melt the wax in a turkey roaster that has a double boiler built in.  I dip the PermaComb in the wax and tip it this way and that until all the bubbles stop.   Then I shake it out.


It would be a waste all the way around. Wax dipped they are perfectly accepted already and the essential oils would evaporate off in the hot wax.

>3. I have frames with brood in the existing hives (a nuc and a deep), what should I do with them?

?So you mix permacomb and foundation frames?

Well, I do, but that's not what I'm talking about.  A medium frame is 6 1/4".  A PermaComb frame is 6".  The bees build a row of Drone cells between one box and the next.

>Ahh so the reason a queen cell looks like a peanut is because the larva is floating out further in the cell?

They look like a peanut because while a worker cell is horizontal a queen cell is vertical.  Not all queen cells have the larvae floated out, but many emergency cells do.  Bees don't trear down old brood cells very well because of the cocoons.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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