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Author Topic: problem with my girlfriends  (Read 8831 times)
JP
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« on: March 19, 2006, 04:45:32 PM »

Well, one of my hives, that seems healthy, has some girls that are in the grass near the hive. Saw approx. 15-20 in the grass, their wings looked chewed off or deformed. Also saw a couple coming back to the hive that looked drunk (rolling around), but dying, there were just a few of these that I noticed, that were on the entrance way to the hive. I did check this hive a few days ago & didn't notice anything unusual, but I have seen a few bees in the grass near this hive once before in the past, but just not this many. Anyone's guess what is going on? Didn't see any varroa on the bees in the grass. No sign of nosema or anything obvious or otherwise. Thnx.
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 05:05:18 PM »

Hi JP
The deformed wings you mention are a sign of Varroa. The deformed bees are often expelled by the colony. Tracheal mites also often cause crawling bees around the hive but the wings are a give away.

Get a treatment on. Good luck.
Regards Ian
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JP
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2006, 05:46:46 PM »

I guess I should have mentioned that this hive is Russian, which is supposed to handle varroa better than others. Was wondering if it might be trachial though. Will search for non chemical methods if I continue to see a problem.
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2006, 06:19:10 PM »

Time for powdered sugar treatment.

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2006, 12:26:59 AM »

I wonder, could it just be, bees that have flown their wings off?


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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2006, 08:54:40 AM »

I agree with Ian,  most likely varroa.  

Quote from: JP
I guess I should have mentioned that this hive is Russian, which is supposed to handle varroa better than others.

Did you use any treatment last year?

Quote from: JP

 Was wondering if it might be trachial though.
Tracheal mites won't cause deformed wings.

I would suggest a mite drop test or visual inspection of drone brood.
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JP
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 12:05:30 PM »

Did not do any treatments so far this season or last. I did observe what appeared to be burr comb in between the two hive bodies in a certain area. The comb in this area had drone larvae and I did see varroa mites on the larvae. The bees seemed to be working this area with purpose as though they were sequestering the drones with the varroa. That might sound far fetched but that's what it appeared like to me. This morning I saw a couple of bees in the grass again and some again by the entrance way acting spastic.
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2006, 02:29:23 PM »

I had a strong hive with few varroa. Suddenly, during spring (2005) I could see deformed wings, bees that can´t fly, bees removing drone pupae, and few bees harvesting pollen. Obviously the brood can´t make royal jelly.
Requeening is esencial and perhaps you must add any brood frames with healthy pupae.
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2006, 02:34:23 PM »

"Obviously the brood can´t make royal jelly. "
I wanted to say: "the nurse bees can´t make royal jelly". Sorry.
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2006, 08:54:40 PM »

But the nurse bees do make royal jelly. From 6-11 days old, the nurse bees job is to feed younger larvae which includes the production of royal jelly from the newly developed hypopharyngeal gland.

Jeroen Deseyn and Johan Billen

Zoological Institute, University of Leuven, Naamsestraat 59, 3000 Leuven, Belgium

(Received 19 February 2004 - Revised 20 May 2004 - Accepted 28 May 2004; Published online: 16 March 2005)

Abstract - The main secretory products of the hypopharyngeal gland are royal jelly compounds, as well as other substances such as -glucosidase. Our study of the morphology and ultrastructure of this gland in relation to worker's age clearly shows a secretory cycle within the cells, although production of secretion is asynchroneous between different cells within an acinus. Secretory vesicles appear already in 3 day old bees, while peak production is around 6 days. Thereafter, the volume of the acini as well as the number of secretory vesicles decrease and no vesicles are visible after 3 weeks of age. Foragers display degenerative structures in their cells. The hypopharyngeal gland cells of winter bees contain large numbers of secretory vesicles, that are probably stored until spring.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2006, 01:42:16 AM »

Thank you Jay!
I was meaning, or I want to explain, that when a hive has problems in the "productive chain" because nosema, acarapis or PMS, nurse bees can´t work rightly. Hypopharyngeal glands don´t work. Any times because the nurse or young bee is ill. Any times beause high mortality of adult bees (parasited bees are weak), so young bees will harvest honey instead of pollen.
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2006, 03:17:44 AM »

In this time of year if you see wingless bees in front of hive it is surely from varroa. When you take a frame and look emerging bees you see mites on their back if contamination is bad.  Then you take off some pupas and look what is on the bottom of cells. If there is white like wheat powder they are residuals of mites.

If you see drone pupas and open them you may see how often you meet mites.

It case is that severe, and you have 3 frames of brood, it better take all brood away and destroy them. Then give to some cure to bees.

Iff mite attack is severe, the is no idea to save brood and wait that mites suck blood from rest of bees.  It is better to get rid off ´them as soon as possible.


When you clean the hive and bees raise new clear brood it will recover very soon.

Queen change doest not help. Powder sugar does not help.

Russians are not varroa resistant, so I have read. Some are and some not.
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2006, 05:03:54 AM »

Hi finés!
Queen change does not help...if the hive collapsed "est" (is)  cheesy
If Louis XIV said: "L'etat c'est moi", the queen can say: "I am the hive".
Everything at time. Requeening in autumn healthy hives. Varroa treatment(and nosema if beekeeper is hypochondriac)  in autumn too.
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JP
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2006, 11:17:37 PM »

I spoke with a friend this evening who has been a beekeeper for quite a while. He mimicked what you had to say about russians Finsky. He said he uses allstars from weavers in Texas & hasn't had a problem in yrs. He does requeen certain hives, usually in the fall. He had approx. 130 hives before Katrina. He suggested using Thyme oil. Has anyone tried Thyme oil before?
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2006, 11:30:54 AM »

Thyme oil? suggestions, results, anyone. Thnx.
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2006, 12:30:04 PM »

Hi  JP
Did your friend mean thyme oil or thymol.
Thymol is a naturally produced sustance that can be man made and is used in Api gaurd I think you guys call it Api life var.(It's the gell treatment) Thymol can be purchased in powder form and is also used in a few other treatment methods.
Thymol is naturally produced and found in thyme amongst other things


Regards Ian
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2006, 01:55:43 PM »

Quote from: JP
He suggested using Thyme oil. Has anyone tried Thyme oil before?


In Finland we use now thyme oil, formic acid and oxalic acid trickling

In reserach the August treatments with formic acid or thymol have shown an average effecacy of 65-80 % in hives with one box.  It is time when honey yield has taken away from hive.

In hives with two boxes they  have a lower effecacy.

Oxalic acid trickling is very important part of the concept. It is done to all hives after all of the brood has emerged in October/November. The research with simultaneous advising  has had a remarkable effect to beekeepers work. Almost all professional beekeepers, and half of the hobby beekeepers  use some kind of double treatments.

In two years the percentage of beekeepers doing oxalic acid trickling has risen from 0% in 2000 to 35 % in 2002. 2002 was the first year for beekeepers to buy the pads for thymol treatments.18 % of beekeepers chose to use this method.

Now 70% of beekepers use oxalic acid trickling

If you use thymol in spring, it may violate brood bably. Most of mites are inside brood combs.

I change every year my queens but it has nothing to do with varroa.

Drode brood trapping takes away 50% of mites.
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2006, 03:29:55 PM »

Finsky, how many drone combs you put in a single hive or do you use any?
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2006, 04:01:09 PM »

Quote from: TwT
Finsky, how many drone combs you put in a single hive or do you use any?


I use usually 2 done frames in upper brood box, BUT each Langtroth frame has medium foundation. There is 1/3 gap for dronecells. And I cut that area away when it is capped.

It makes frames cleaner because bees need not put in every corner their drones. I look from drone cells what is the level of  mites. I do not calculate them otherwise. They are there and stay...
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JP
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2006, 07:25:08 PM »

My friend said thyme oil, he used this a while back, he said it was a laborius chore but reaped good results. He uses allstars from weavers in Texas, anybody ever hear of them?
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2006, 07:58:49 PM »

>My friend said thyme oil, he used this a while back, he said it was a laborius chore but reaped good results.

Thymol is slightly more refined but is the same thing.

>He uses allstars from weavers in Texas, anybody ever hear of them?

I've had them off and on for a few decades.  They were good bees.  I'm just not comfortable getting bees from AHB (Africanized Honey Bee) areas.
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 10:55:27 PM »

I've noticed a simmilar situation with one of my colonies in which a couple dozen end up on the ground under the enterence.  I always thought they were just bees from a short "beard" on the enterence that were knocked off by the wind.
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JP
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2006, 08:22:48 PM »

Looked at an ad for apistan on the back of some bee catalog and noticed it has thymol as the active ingredient. Said it's non chemical and for tracheal and varroa. What's the consensus on apistan you guys?
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2006, 04:15:14 AM »

The product I looked at was called apiguard not apistan and it said the product can be used against apistan and checkmite resistant bees. The add was from betterbee. Any feedback on apiguard?
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2006, 04:34:07 AM »

Quote from: JP
Any feedback on apiguard?


It is thymol base : "Apiguard® is a natural product specifically designed for use in beehives. It is a sophisticated slow release gel matrix, ensuring correct dosage of the active ingredient thymol."

http://www.beekeeping.com/vita/products/apiguard.htm

Treatment lasts 4-6 weeks.

If you have too much varroa, I prefer the Dutch method to catch mites. It takes shorter time and does not need chemicals. It lasts 3 weeks.

 http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/varroa_drone_method.htm

Move original hive  10 feet and put on old site new box, one frame of brood and the queen. Brood frame calm down bees when they notice that the hive is not their own.

Let bees fly themselves to new hive.
After 2 days give brood back to old hive. So all mites are now on back of bees. Now you may hive some treatment and drop most mites from bees.

Continue with larva frame system.
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2006, 06:13:16 AM »

I think you just need the right temperatures to use the apiguard as it has to evaporate. Just like menthol.  I've never used it.
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2006, 06:32:08 AM »

I would think you'd want to quantify your mite problem to get an idea of the level of infestation. Do some drop counts, open some drone brood, or do a sugar shake. If you don't monitor mite levels, you have no idea if you've got a problem until obvious symptoms show up, like they have now.

The problem is, when overt symptoms of varroa infestation appear, it's a bit late. If this were early fall your hive would be a goner. As it is, the hive will likely recover if you can knock down the varroa population, but if you're not monitoring, how will you know if your treatments are effective? If you don't continue to monitor after treatment, how will you know your varroa population is in check? You can't just look for mites on your bees- they're like mice: when you see one mouse, there are a hundred that you don't see hiding.

George-
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2006, 07:32:01 AM »

Hi all
JP: Api Gaurd has been in the Uk for a few years now. I have used it myself with good results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviosly for the best results follow the instuctions and it is temperature dependant. There have been trials when the trays have been left on over winter and they are showing lower mite levels in the hive so it does still work although to a much lesser extent.

It is also said to help against chalk brood to a degree.

What I would add is don't let it get near any honey you intend to extract it makes it taste and smell like cr*p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have also seen cases IMO of the queens stopping laying briefly when the product is on the hive.

It's being suggested that people alternate between this product and chemical treatments like Apistan to slow the development of resistant mites.


Regards Ian
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2006, 07:50:49 AM »

Ian, do you still use it, I was wondering about the gel and what effects it has on any brood and how many times you have use it without and side-affects,
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 09:12:17 AM »

Hi all
Yes I will be using it this year. And IMO I would rather use it on my drone raising hives than use some chemicals that have been shown to have effects on bees and that mites can build a tollerance too.

The instructions say 2 trays should be placed on 1 after the other. After the bees have finished emptying the first.

The only side effects I have seen are the taste it gives the Honey(if you get the stuff smell it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Unlike chemicals Apigaurd and ACIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE THOUGHT TO DIRECTLY ATTACK THE MITE so unless the little BAR++++++ start using body armour resistance should not devellop. evil

Regards Ian
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 12:25:51 PM »

Quote from: ian michael davison
What I would add is don't let it get near any honey you intend to extract it makes it taste and smell like cr*p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lets have a look on forecast  http://www.usairnet.com/weather/maps/forecast/louisiana/temperature/

Seems like it is good summer in Louisiana and honey comes in. Are you going to spoil yield with varroa handling?  

These are not intended to use during honey season. When you use DRONE COMBS they catch 50% of mites.  Tear off drone pupas and look, do you se 10 mites. 200 or 5000 when you uncap drone brood.

If you have mites too much, do that Dutch system. You spoil honey with chemicals.
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2006, 02:14:34 PM »

Update!!!
Been busy and been under the weather but managed to do a sugar shake on this hive of mine.
To reiterate, this hive had lots of empty drawn comb, and open brood comb, that bees tried pulling out, decapitated some. Numbers way down and bees in grass and on bottom board with deformed wings.

Checked hive the other day and got stung on far head and ear,3 stings. went back in with veil and jacket and got stung on the leg. Gave up and closed hive.

Today, did sugar shake. Did 3 shakes. shake one, 20 bees, one mite, shake 2, 25 bees, two mites, shake three, 35 bees, four mites and last 7 days have noticed 3 or 4 emerging bees with messed up wings on bottom board.

Queen looks fine and fatter than say 3 weeks ago and hive has had an increase in numbers. Hive was very mean, again, but I had full suit on,so no stings.

The hive has unsealed honey in about 4 frames. My other hives all have capped honey, working on storing more.

What do you all think? is it apiguard time? Does't seem like a lot of mites but, they are present. and finding deformed winged bees. Didn't find much brood let alone dronebrood to investigate varroa in broodcomb.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2006, 10:39:05 AM »

JP,
do your bee's wings look like this?

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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2006, 12:41:31 PM »

Great picture!  Is that your's?

I would be planning what you want to do about the varroa.  Powdered sugar.  Drone culling.  It depnds on your philosophy and what you are willing (or wanting) to put in your hive.

Personally I'd probably start with ucapping some capped drone cells and see what you find there for mites.  If you're finding a lot, I'd just cull out all the drone comb in the hive.  Cut it out if it's in patches or scrap it off it its on plastic.  Dust them all with powdered sugar once a week for three weeks.  Then see if you can make it until fall when they will be broodless.  Then if you have a moderate level of mites, I'd vaporize with oxalic acid.  If you can't seem to get the mites under control before then, I'd try confining the queen for three weeks, culling the drone comb and treating with oxalic acid when you have no capped brood.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2006, 12:58:16 PM »

Quote
Great picture! Is that your's?


Can't take the credit for the quality of the photo,
and I'm glad to say it's not my bee either.

Got the picture from Penn State's Entomology site . . .

http://www.ento.psu.edu/
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2006, 01:11:25 PM »

that is a good pic, one of my hives was draging out young bee's like that last year with DWV, and it was a removal hive I removed last spring out of a house that the owner said they have been there since he bought the home 6 years ago and the home was vacant for 4 years before that, proud to say that hive is still booming and I never treated it with anything... I might have something there Wink
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manowar422
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2006, 01:16:39 PM »

Quote
I never treated it with anything... I might have something there


Ted,
is this the hive your doing your grafting from?
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2006, 01:34:08 PM »

Great pic indeed, that's gotta hurt having a mite on your head like that! Yes the bees that can't fly and the ones on the bottom board that just emerged have wings that look like that.

Michael, there is not much brood in the hive to uncap and check. Should I check what little drone brood I have? I do have the apiguard that I ordered but I don't have to use this product if you think that powdering my bees is a better or safer solution. Just to reiterate I won't be harvesting any honey from this hive this season.

One more thing, do you guys have any suggestions as to why this hive is so mean. Could it have something to do with the mite problem or perhaps the queen or both?

I have a feral queen I could replace her with, unless it is advisable to wait  until this hive becomes healthier.
thanks for the feedback guys.
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Ted


« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2006, 03:09:41 PM »

Quote from: manowar422
Quote
I never treated it with anything... I might have something there


Ted,
is this the hive your doing your grafting from?



yes this was the hive I grafted from, right now that same hive is at FatBeemans because he is grafting from this hive and shaking bee's from it to make nuc's, I have other hives I am grafting from now, never treated any hive on my yard and only lose 1 hive this past winter dew to queen lose and new queen had no drone to mate with and it was a package hive I started last year with a Kona queen...
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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2006, 09:10:28 PM »

>Should I check what little drone brood I have?

Yes.

> I do have the apiguard that I ordered but I don't have to use this product if you think that powdering my bees is a better or safer solution.

Thymol is, by all acounts somewhat effective.  I have never used it beacuse I don't want honey that tastes like thymol.  But it shoudl work.

>One more thing, do you guys have any suggestions as to why this hive is so mean. Could it have something to do with the mite problem or perhaps the queen or both?

Either, both.  If it's mean, I'd requeen either way.
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