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Author Topic: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?  (Read 330 times)

Offline PhilK

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Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« on: September 12, 2016, 02:35:21 AM »
Hi all,

New to beekeeping so very very new to anything to do with queen rearing. We started with two hives. They were requeened due top aggression and poor performance, and one of the queens was an absolute dream. Her brood frames are amazing and the bees are quite gentle. I have taken her away from her hive into a nuc and it's been moved into a full deep. She is continuing to do well and the daughter they raised in the parent hive has a very good brood pattern too.

I have 5 other hives that are doing OK, but none quite so good as this queen or her daughter. What is an easy way to get that queen's genetics into my other hives? Is there one?

Thanks
Phil

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 07:47:43 AM »
From the queen and daughters hives take a frame of sealed brood, a frame of brood with eggs, a frame of honey and put into nuc with a new frame. If you like shake in a frame of bees from a honey frame to give the nuc a few field bees.
Shift the nuc a few miles away for a few days so the field bees stay with the nuc,
They will form a queen cell and eventually you have another hive.
When established go to the poorer hives , get rid of the queen, leave them queenless for 4-8 hrs then add the nuc with the new queen. We cover everyone with icing sugar to combine hives, they are more interested in licking off the suger than worrying who is who and look we have a new queen!!!

Offline little john

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 09:28:10 AM »
The simplest method I can think of - as you only need a few q/cells - is to make-up a queenless nuc:

Whenever drones have begun flying (which is kinda important !), take one of your 'undesirable' colonies and split it into 2 boxes, as if you were making an equal split.  Place these boxes at least 10 feet apart, and away from the original hive location.  Then wait half an hour.

What you should be seeing then is that the bees from one box have become distressed, and are circling around frantically trying to find their queen - indicating that this is the queenless half of the colony.  Place this box back on the original stand (to pick-up the foragers) and begin feeding it.  Where the other (queenright) box is placed doesn't really matter, as long as it's not too close.

Then, take a frame of BIAS from your chosen donor colony, shake-off the bees, and place this frame in the centre of your queenless nuc.  Queen cells will then be drawn, and can be cut-out and given to the other 'undesirables'.  Whether you squish their queens before donation or rely on the virgin superceding the older queen is a matter of preference.
Ensure that you leave at least one q/cell behind on the frame, for the queenless 'starter-finisher' to raise it's own queen from.  If you find several cells clumped together, treat them as one cell - don't try to separate them.

As this is only a nuc-sized queenless 'starter-finisher', only a few cells may be drawn - if you need a few more, then just repeat the procedure.

There are many better methods, but nearly all require special equipment - like Cloake Boards and such like.  The above method only requires an extra box.
LJ

Offline PhilK

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 07:45:35 PM »
Thanks guys

Beavo that sounds manageable even for me!

LJ - when you do the equal split are you splitting the 10 frame box into two 5 frame nucs? Why do you have to feed the queenless split? Also how can I be sure they'll draw QCs from the eggs of my good queen not from the eggs of their original queen?

Offline gww

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 09:04:20 PM »
Philk
Keep in mind I am new and so can only guess.   I would say thay may build QC on the hives frames and the frame you put in.  Just destroy the ones you don't want.  Also you might look at notching a couple of spots on the added comb of the queen you like.  Look up mel disselkoen queen rearing.
Hope this helps.
gww

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2016, 12:09:18 AM »
Littlejohn
If you don't remove or squish the undesirable queen when you add the cell, the cell may be torn down.
If the nuc or queenless hive draw a large number of queen cells, then you can transplant some but we are always happy to leave 2-3 to make sure one hatches and if they all hatch at once then the stronger queen will survive, we hope.

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 12:12:38 AM »
A few simple ways to get a few Queen cells.


http://www.bushfarms.com/beesafewgoodqueens.htm


         BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
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Offline little john

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 04:58:48 AM »
LJ - when you do the equal split are you splitting the 10 frame box into two 5 frame nucs?
Yes (or into two 10-frame boxes dummied-down to 5-frames).  That way you keep roughly 50% of the workers, and by placing the 5-frame Nuc on the old stand you also get to keep the lion's share of the established foragers, maybe 90% or so.  That's a lot of bees to have in one nuc box - which is then ideal for raising q/cells.

Quote
Why do you have to feed the queenless split?
Because making queens is more successful when there's a flow on. If there's a genuine flow taking place then they'll ignore any artificial feed, if there's not, they won't.  So feed is kinda 'belt 'n' braces'.

Quote
Also how can I be sure they'll draw QCs from the eggs of my good queen not from the eggs of their original queen?
There are three details I didn't include, for fear of making the method sound complex.  The first you've spotted (!). So - after 48 hrs, inspect ALL frames in the nuc for q/cells and remove any which have been started except for those on your chosen frame (which is best marked in some way - I use drawing pins/ thumb-tacks).

The second detail concerns the cells started on your chosen frame.  I prefer to inspect after 48hrs rather than 24 because there's then more q/cell growth to make judgments with.  If one cell should be *significantly* advanced compared to the others, that suggests it may have been started with a much older larva, and so I'd remove and bin it if there are plenty of cells on that comb, or if you're short of q/cells then cut it out as soon as it's capped and donate it to a colony as usual, but make a note to keep an eye on that colony for possible problems later.  Many people say that bees never make a mistake when choosing larva, and they may well be right. But - 'belt and braces' again.

The third detail concerns the cutting out of q/cells.  Standard practice is to cut out cells a day or two before expected emergence, but some people cut-out on the day of capping, or the day after.  I've done both and they seem equally safe - providing you treat the q/cells with the utmost care.  Early cut-outs certainly prevent the disaster which an early emergence can wreak.
Putting some kind of cage around advanced q/cells isn't very easy with 'wild' q/cells, which is where the Cupkit and similar cell-bar systems score over this type of technique.

LJ

Offline little john

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Re: Easy Ways To Get Daughters From A Good Queen?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 05:09:32 AM »
Littlejohn
If you don't remove or squish the undesirable queen when you add the cell, the cell may be torn down.
If the nuc or queenless hive draw a large number of queen cells, then you can transplant some but we are always happy to leave 2-3 to make sure one hatches and if they all hatch at once then the stronger queen will survive, we hope.

Personally, I prefer to squish the undesirable queen before donating a q/cell, whenever possible - that way you know for sure what's what.  But simply adding a queen cell (which is hopefully then seen as a supercedure cell) is a commonly used method of re-queening in some places - I believe the success rate is somewhere around 80%.  For me, a lot depends on the size and temper of the colony in question, and whether I can face the amount of work involved in finding an unmarked queen in a large, over-defensive colony.  With such a colony an 80% success rate sounds mighty good to me ...  :smile:

I agree with you 100% that donating (or leaving) two or more q/cells is better than one - for sure - if you have a good number to work with.
LJ