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Author Topic: Race Of Bees  (Read 3161 times)
Romahawk
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« on: March 07, 2006, 03:36:09 PM »

Is there anyone who can tell from looking at the pictures below what race of bees I have. I got them as a swarm from a local beekeeper who has Italians and NWC's. He is not sure which hive they came from as he had several swarms that day. He also has a few feral colonies in the area of his yard.  They are real gentle and produced a five gallon pail of surplus honey for me. They were not treated with anything last fall and so far I have seen no deformed wings in the dead that are being deposited on the landing board. They do seem sort of small to me when compared to the head of the eight penny nail in the picture. Perhaps with the different mix and match of bees from local beekeepers plus ferals they are just plain bees. I'll be trying to get another swarm or two from him in the spring if he has any.


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Understudy
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 09:06:49 PM »

They look like banded Italians to me.

But I am not an expert.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Apis629
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 10:38:03 PM »

They look too dark to be italian.  Besides 3 stripe italians have a general light leather color while 5 striped varieties have the same leather color near the connection of the abdomen and thorax.  Given they have thick black bands with a grayish tinge between them I'd bet that these bees are predominantly Carniolan.  Granted, one can only be partially sure by coloration alone.  Behavior, I've found, is much more difinative.  If they have an INCREDIBLY fast build up in spring, a swarming nature (>12 cells), and tend to propolise things with a small winter cluster than chances are they're carniolan.  Russians are only a tad bit darker, and are much less wide spread.  Cardovans and Italians are all that's usually used down here but I know one guy about 20 miles from me who keeps carniolans.  I'm just trying to back up what I say.
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 10:43:25 PM »

darn you make me wonder what kind of bees I have.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Romahawk
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 12:04:14 AM »

Thanks for the response guys. I was curious as to what kind they were because they were so gentle and they built up so quickly that they gave me a five gallon surplus the first year. I'm also kind of happy with them for the fact that last fall I was seeing some bees with deformed wings and also some immature larva being dumped out of the hive but have seen none of that since the snow came. I've kept the entrance clear of snow all winter and check the dead bees on the landing board every couple of days and all that I find are like the ones in the pictures. Hopefully I can get some more swarms like them in a few months.
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 10:23:38 AM »

they are mutts", Wink depend's on where you got them, and what the queen raiser called them before he open mated the queen, it safe to call them mutts.....
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 10:45:06 AM »

I KNOW, I KNOW!!!!

They're honey bees  cheesy
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Romahawk
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 10:53:08 AM »

Thanks TWT...... There was no queen raiser involved, this was a swarm caught near the yard of a local beekeeper who didn't have the extra equipment for them so he gave them to me. He wasn't sure if they came from his hives or a nearby feral colony. He had several swarms that day and I was talking to him earlier about trying bees again so he gave me a call and asked if I wanted one of them. I just hope that they are still the same gentle bees this spring as they were last fall and that he has a swarm or two this year again that he doesn't want.  Smiley
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livetrappingbymatt
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 11:06:50 PM »

do you belong to the mid york bee club?
bob
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 08:07:55 AM »

Looks like Italians to me.
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Michael Bush
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Romahawk
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 07:27:01 PM »

Quote from: livetrappingbymatt
do you belong to the mid york bee club?
bob


No I don't, even though Deerfield is only a short hop from here I just never seem to have enough time. I have been telling the wife I need to go back to work to get a rest.   Smiley

Quote
Looks like Italians to me.


Thanks Michael, I guess it's not real easy to tell and I still haven't found a net site that has any real good photos of the different colors and patterns of the different races of bees.

I have to go and take a look at some that are in the wall of a guys shop over in the village. He claims they have been there for a number of years and they are a grey color. He doesn't want them removed but he did say I was welcome to try and hive a swarm from them this spring. He has a couple of hives over head in his shop but he never sets them up and tries to catch a swarm himself, says he just enjoys watching them and loves to see them when they swarm and head out for the woods and a new home. My luck will be to have them settle 30 or 40 feet up in the big walnut trees in his yard when they do come out.
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Jay
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2006, 09:50:56 AM »

That's a new one, an observation hive in the wall of your shop! cheesy
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 10:27:42 AM »

Those bees are cross-bred. Surely they are not italians.

Here is italians: http://www.uni.uiuc.edu/~stone2/beeclose.jpg

Carniolan: http://www.carniolan.com/image%20pour%20indexhtm/apis_mellifera_carnica.jpg

Black bees  http://www.biavl.dk/english/brunbi-1.jpg

and 17 other races somewhere....
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 10:32:02 AM »

Most of the Italians from breeders seem to be bred for color.  They like the yellow Italians.  Most feral Italians quickly "degenerate" to that more dark leather coloring instead of the more yellow brown color.  My experience is that those are just feral Italians that have bee a few generations in the wild.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 10:58:33 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
Most feral Italians quickly "degenerate" to that more dark leather coloring instead of the more yellow brown color.  .


That is not true. They are not any more races. They are hybrids.

Surely yellow band originates from Italians. Yellow bands are original Italian color. It is not "degeneration" if color changes after crossing.

Cerana bee is same color, and as you have seen African bee too.

I have seen 40 years bee races and how hybrids develope.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2006, 02:58:44 PM »

It is very possible that the "leather colored" Italians are crossed.  But it’s also possible they are just regressing back to their original color before they bred them for color.  Brother Adam says in "In Search of the Best Strains of Bees" page 37, 2nd and 3rd Paragraphs:

"There are, according to my findings, three distinct varieties of the Italian bee:  the dark leather-colored variety; the bright yellow kind, as usually supplied by the commercial breeders; and a very pail lemon-coloured type, not often seen.  The so-called Golden Italian is not a true Italian bee at all.  It is an outcome of a cross between the Italian and a black bee, as our cross-breeding experiments have clearly demonstrated.

"Experience has shown that the leather-coloured bee surpasses in economic value the more attractive bright yellow variety.  The first queens exported from Italy came from the Ligurian Alps - hence the name Ligurian bee.  These original importations, made nearly a 100 years ago, were mainly of the leather-coloured variety, and it was undoubtedly the tawny Ligurian native bee that established the reputation of the Italian.  According to my findings, the true leather-coloured bee is found only in the Ligurian Aops, in the moutainous region between La Spezia and Genoa.  Immediately west of Genoa, Hybrids make their appearance."
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2006, 05:49:36 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
These original importations, made nearly a 100 years ago, were mainly of the leather-coloured variety, and it was undoubtedly the tawny Ligurian native bee that established the reputation of the Italian.  ."


And now it is found in USA in the middle of all bee races and crossings?

MAAREC: "The bees presently in the United States are the result of free-mating crosses of the various imports. Most probably, racially "pure" stocks no longer exist in North America. Rather, this new genetic mix of bees can best be termed American. By the same token, exports from the United States and crossbreeding have influenced the nature of bees abroad."

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm#Pool
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Jack Parr
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2006, 08:05:44 AM »

a very busy man Finsky.  

Reading and searching for all those sites that you offer to support your arguements and debates. Your favorites list must be very long.

I read that you do have a job so I am wondering where you find all the time to search out all that information smiley Keeps me busy just clicking on and reading, never mind searching.  shocked

All is good though. Keep up the good work. We appreciate your efforts.
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newbee101
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2006, 09:40:47 AM »

They look like my Minnesota Hygenics.
Anyone know what breeds were crosssed to make them?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2006, 11:15:18 AM »

According to Dr. Marla Spivak (who bred them), the MN hygenics are just Italians selected for hygenic behavior.
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Michael Bush
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