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Author Topic: To strain "mash & strain" honey  (Read 12004 times)
beebiz
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« on: February 21, 2006, 10:59:19 PM »

Hey all,

I know it's early to be thinking of such, but I'm doing a little "forward thinking"!!

I don't have an extractor, don't have the money to buy one, and don't see that situation changing in the near future.  Right now I don't even have the price of a bottling bucket strainer system.... but I'm hoping.  Just in case I can't get one, what kind of material should I purchase to strain my "crush & strain" honey?  And, before anyone says cheesecloth, I tried to strain some honey several years ago with some cheese cloth that I bought at Wal-Mart and it didn't work very well for me.  The cheese cloth seemed to absorb way to much honey and it was a pain in the butt getting it out!!

By the way, since I only have one hive I won't be selling any of the honey.  I will be using it for my own personal use and will share some with my parents and syblings.  I just want to make sure that I get as much wax and impurities filtered out as I can while loosing as little honey as possible.

Speaking of filters..... what kind of material should I use to filter liquid wax?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Robert
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2006, 12:34:04 AM »

You plan is quite bad. When you broke combs and bees need to build them every time again you will loose 50% of yield every year.

And if you learn to keep bees it is easy to keep 3 hives and get honey to sell.  If you are not going to earn with bees you just loose your money, even if you do not have it.

You are going to be a real regressed beekeeper with your small cells. That is Afro style.
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beebiz
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2006, 01:43:48 AM »

Finsky said:
Quote
That is Afro style.


What the heck is that supposed to mean?Huh??

Finsky also said:
Quote
You are going to be a real regressed beekeeper with your small cells.


Assuming that you mean that my bees will be regressed to small cell comb, that's what I want!!!  Unless I am BADLY mistaken, that is one of the newer means to combat mites without having to use chemicals!!  I LIKE that idea!!!!!

First, I'm not physically able to handle more than one or two hives!!

Second, and now repeating myself.... I am not going to be selling honey!!!  I simply want to keep the bees for my own enjoyment and to help pollinate my garden/flowers!!

Third, my parents, my syblings, and I like some of the honey in the comb and some strained!!

Fourth, I plan to make other uses of the wax that I harvest from my hive!

Fith, even if my bees produce 50% less honey because of having to build new comb, it's fine with me.  I will gladly accept whatever the girls can share with me!!  I'm NOT looking to get rich!!

And finally, by the time everything is said and done this year, it will have cost me no more than a couple of bags of sugar, some pollen suppliment, and my time to get whatever amount of honey and wax I get from the girls.  How the heck can I LOSE money if the whole experience has been enjoyable and therapeutic for me and my garden/flowers have been pollinated to boot???

Have you not heard of Top Bar Hive BeekeepingHuh?  You might be right, but according to what I have read about Top Bar Hives and what several of their keepers have told me there is a reduction of honey production in a hive where there is no comb to start the bees.  But, according to those same sources your estimation of a 50% reduction in honey production is WAY OFF!!!!!  According to those sources, the reduction is MUCH less!!

Sir, I have enjoyed reading your responses in the past, but NOT this time!!!  I have found this particular response offensive and demeaning to say the least!!!  If you cannot answer a simple question without bashing a beekeeper for his/her preferred style of beekeeping, I would MUCH prefer that you didn't answer AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ymbe
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2006, 04:24:43 AM »

Beebiz; you might want to try melting the lot out using a solar extractor. Just make sure it doesn't get too hot. I know a beekeeper who does this because they are short of time for extraction and don't keep a centrifugal extractor.

The bees are kept with no foundation (just a starter wax drizzle along the frame) so that it is a simple matter of cutting the wax out and placing the lot in the tray and letting the sun do the rest.

The honey is drained off from below the wax once the whole mass has been extracted in this way - post filtering is required, but a kitchen sieve and then some cheesecloth might be the way to go here. Don't forget to save some comb honey!

However, as Finsky says you will loose your comb which is inefficient for the bees, but you won't have to worry about the extraction so that's the bonus you are looking for I think!

I've not actually witnessed this in action so some more opinions of the method would be good to get and some cheap designs for this type of melter. Polycarbonate cellular roofing is pretty cheap for a sheet and light (some people recommend a double glazing unit, but these are pretty heavy and pricey) - you just need a tray of some sort under this which is wax/honey proof and a hole at one end for it all to run out of.

You'll also end up with a big block of useful beeswax...
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 07:08:11 AM »

While you can melt the remaing honey when you get done, it would be a shame to heat it when you don't need to.  I've used everything from nylon window screen to nylon cloth to cheescloth for a strainger.  The window screen works fine.  What wax gets through, which won't be much, will rise tothe top and can be skimmed off with a sheet of saran wrap.  I tend to put the saran wrap on a paper plate and eat the honey with the wax myself.  Smiley

It's really a simple and messy process.  But then so is extracting.  You are already using whatever you'r using, but for crush and strain I would use starter strips or unwired wax or some kind of foundationless.  If you already have plastic foundation it will be a little more work to scrape the combs off the foundation and you'll need to rig some way to drain the frames because they will have a lot of honey on them.  If you have wax, you can just cut the sombs out and squisth them.  I leave the top row at least half on so the bees will have a good starting point for the next comb.

You'll need a double bucket strainer.  They are easy to make.  Here's some pictures:

http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/thar.htm

I just mash the combs with my hands.

Here's what Richard Taylor says about wax and honey and extractors:

Richard Taylor on Comb Honey:

"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think no only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped....

"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life."


Richard Taylor on the expense of making wax:

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."

from The Comb Honey Book, by Richard Taylor

To put it in perspective, yes, if you have a farm you should buy a tractor.  If you have a little postage stamp garden you should buy a shovel.  If you have fifty hives you need an extractor unless you have a market for that much comb honey.  If you have one or two hives, it's a waste of time and money.  Taylor had hundreds of hives and no extractor and made a nice living selling honey.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 07:23:34 AM »

Quote from: beebiz

Have you not heard of Top Bar Hive BeekeepingHuh?


Yes, 44 years ago I started with "almost top bar hive". It was a box where I put a swarm. Second hive was a straw skep with natural combs just like in the pic.

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beebiz
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 11:11:08 AM »

My dearest Mr. Bush,

I figured you would be the one to come through for me..... and sure enough YOU DID!!!!!!!!  I simply wanted to know what kind of material was best for straining my honey..... and you told me!!!  And, I am VERY greatful to you for that!!

From what you have said in many of your other posts and what you quoted from Mr. Richard Taylor, you both sound like the kind of guys that I wish I had as local mentors!!  As I said before, I am physically unable to handle more than one or two hives.

In addition to that, I want to handle things as naturally and as chemically free as possible.  And in additioin to that, I REFUSE to pay $200 and up for an extractor that will be used to extract honey from 1, 2, or even 3 hives and then have it sit, collect dust, and take up space for the rest of the year.  It doesn't make good economical OR common sense!!!

From what I read last night in many of his previous posts, Finsky LOVES to call people's ideas stupid and accuse them of having "bad plans."  But if you ask me, anyone who would fork out that kind of money to extract honey from only 1, 2, or 3 hives is bordering on being a mindless idiot themselves!!  And, they either have no financial common sense or they have more money than they have sense!!!  But, that is THEIR business, NOT MINE!!!!  And, I would still be happy to offer FRIENDLY advice and help if I were asked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the foundation in my hive...... THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!!!  And, there never will be!!!!!!  I took some scrap oak pieces from the lumber mill, and cut it into strips that were 1/16" thick and 1" tall.  I took some fresh beeswax and coated the strips by rubbing them with it.  I then used my mini air nailer to attach them to my Lang. topbars.  The whole process (not counting going to pick up the lumber from the mill) took me about 30 minutes to do enough for 2 hive bodies!!  And, the girls have done very well on it!!

With the arthritis that I have in my fingers, it would have taken me that long or longer to insert foundation and wire it into 4 or 5 frames!

Right now, the girls are in two deep hive bodies.  But, after reading many of your posts last night Mr. Bush, I WILL be moving them to med. boxes!!  That will solve my problem of having to deal with those EXTREMELY HEAVY deeps.  Mr. Bush, when would you suggest that I begin moving the girls to the med. boxes and do you have any suggestions on the best way to do it?

By the way, is "The Comb Honey Book" the complete title of Mr. Richard Taylor's book?  I'd like to know so that as soon as I can afford to do so I can get a copy of it.

I thank you, Mr. Bush!!  And, I thank God for beekeepers like you, Richard Taylor, and Dee Lusby who are willing to continue to think "outside the norm"!!  When you have others bashing you for your work and ideas, just remember that when the idea that simply washing your hands between surgical patients would save lives was first introduced, most doctors thought it was a load of crap TOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Rock on guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yarra_Valley
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 11:28:49 AM »

I don't suppose you know anyone who has an extractor you can borrow. That's what I would do, and have done in the past for that matter. The disadvantage of that is that borrowed stuff has a much higher probability of breaking. But then I've used shade cloth too. When I used shadecloth my family didn't like all the big bits in it, so I had it all to myself afro.
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TREBOR
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 11:55:48 AM »

Hi Robert and all,
 cheese cloth will leave cotton fibers in honey( a place for granulation to start) if your honey sets around that long...! Cheesy
 window screen will work, but make sure its stainless steel so you don't get the chance of getting small bits of other stuff in there,(like fiberglass or rust) nylon comes in many forms and found for cheap like shear curtains at the dollar store. just remember to get white ones and to wash it first.  As for the wax.... well, cheap big coffee filters work, but they are slow.
I would not advise using solar melter to get your honey out off the wax,
 from what I understand sunlight degrades honey and heat ain't that good neither......!
I find if you melt the wax you can scrape the floaties, then pour into milk carton(the waxed paper kind) let it cool over night, tare off carton next day and if you left alittle honey in your wax the rest of the dibreeee
will be left in the bottom in the honey, wash that off with warm water
 then cut the dirty wax off the bottom.....if you have less wax use something taller with a smaller dia.
 put waste in the trash, cause you don't want to draw other bugs like SHB and wax moth....! dont feed it back to the bees after its been heated you may make them sick...... Sad or you could strain the bulk of it and let the bees clean the wax, they do a pretty good job...! though that may start robbing if there are other bees in the area...
 I know you said you don't sell it ,but maybe those people that are eating it could help you with some of the cost and labor, I know they're family  but................... Smiley maybe your family could get you a smoker for your beeeday Cheesy
  as far as finsky

 
Quote
Sir, I have enjoyed reading your responses in the past, but NOT this time!!! I have found this particular response offensive and demeaning to say the least!!! If you cannot answer a simple question without bashing a beekeeper for his/her preferred style of beekeeping, I would MUCH prefer that you didn't answer AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
 that goes for me too.... Cheesy
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Ymbe
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 12:00:11 PM »

Quote from: Yarra_Valley
I don't suppose you know anyone who has an extractor you can borrow.


Is there a local association you can join? It is common in the UK for beekeeping associations to have equipment, like extractors, to lend out to members. Maybe they can help you out if you do decide to use one.
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buck
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 01:31:29 PM »

I use nylon paint filters from HD. They fit over a 5 gal pail and the wax does not stick much to it.  If you pulverize your comb & wax and let it sit much of the wax will rise to the top. Check with your local suppliers. I have rented an extractor for $10/day several times.
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beebiz
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 01:48:47 PM »

Hey All,

As for other keepers in the area, I only know of one and without going into any details, I had rather not keep bees as to ask him if I can use his extractor or anything else that he has.  It's sad that it is that way, but that's the way it is!  As for a beekeeping assoc., the closest one to me is between 60 and 70 miles from me.  With gas over $2 per gallon and supposed to go up again, I just can't afford the monthly trips right now.  Besides, I really don't want to fool with an extractor.  And I have no place to store the empty comb when not needed.

It would just be much simpler, cheaper and easier for me to crush and strain than it would be for me to extract.  I like the idea of using the cheap, white, sheer curtains to strain the honey with.  And, I also like Bwrangler's idea of using a paint straining bag with elastic.  Both ideas are simple, inexpensive and will work well with my pickle buckets.  Don't worry, the buckets have been cleaned and aired enough that they no longer have any left over pickle flavor or smell!

As for my family's contribution to the process, they all work at jobs that won't allow them to physically help.  And, I have already told them that the honey will cost them nothing except the cost of the containers to put it in.  But, I know them.  And, I have no doubt that they will slip money into my pocket, slip it to my wife, or ask my wife what I need and it will "magically" apear!!  We have a close, tight-knit family that way!

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.  In September of last year I was talking to my mother about the bees and the honey that I should get this year.  She wanted to know what kind of containers I intended to put it in and, I told her that I would probably put it in pint canning jars.  A few days later, my wife and I returned from one of those 1/2 day visits to the doctor's office and, what did we find on our front deck???  There were 5 cases of brand new, pint-sized Ball canning jars!!  While bringing them inside, I noticed that one of the cases had been partially opened.  I finished opening it only to find that rwo twenty dollar bills had been folded up and put inside! Momma denies that she had anything to do with it, but I believe I know better!!

Speaking of my mother, I'd bet she has some sheers that she doesn't need and would be more than glad to give them to me to use to strain the honey!  Of course, I will wash them before I strain any honey with them.  I'll ask her tonight!

Thanks for all the input!
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 04:13:07 PM »

And now, however, what I should say?  Beebiz, I think that you emptied the slot machine with one hit.  I used humour in wrong place.  I cannot find your conditions in your first letter, and even I know them better, I would not encourage you to carry out your plan.

If you cannot physically lift heavy weights, it is better have horizontal hive with special model.  Full honey boxes are too heavy to lift even to heathy women. I do not know your situation or limits. Difficult to guess.   As far I understood from your text, it would be easy to resolve your needs. Sorry,  I am not going to irritate you any more.

Yes, I have natural tendency to make people sometimes mad shocked  Do not take this case personally.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 07:48:05 PM »

BeeBiz>Right now, the girls are in two deep hive bodies. But, after reading many of your posts last night Mr. Bush, I WILL be moving them to med. boxes!! That will solve my problem of having to deal with those EXTREMELY HEAVY deeps.

Finsky>If you cannot physically lift heavy weights, it is better have horizontal hive with special model.

I'm with Finsky on this.  A horizontal hive might solve all of your problems in one fell swoop.  Just move all the frames into the long hive and be done with it.  But if you want to juggle boxes around, then I'd convert to eight frame mediums.

Full ten frame deeps weigh 90 pounds.
Full ten frame mediums weigh 60 pounds.
Full eight frame mediums weigh 48 pounds.

Check out the horizontal hives on my web site: www.bushfarms.com

BeeBiz>Mr. Bush, when would you suggest that I begin moving the girls to the med. boxes and do you have any suggestions on the best way to do it?

DO you actually have frames or just top bars?  If they are frames you'll need to get them into medium frames.  The "brute force method" would be to cut the brood out and tie it into medium frames.  If you have an excluder (a handy device for things like this) you can put the honey in the deep on the bottom, a queen excluder on top of that, the medium box with the brood tied in the frames on top of that with the queen, and a top entrance of some kind for the drones to get out.  Later when they are well established in the mediums on top you can remove the deep on the botom and harvest it.

The patient method is just remove all the honey frames and put the brood in one deep and add mediums and wait for the bees to eventually move up.  If you get some brood in the mediums instead of the deep put an excluder on and make sure the queen is above it in the medium.

BeeBiz>By the way, is "The Comb Honey Book" the complete title of Mr. Richard Taylor's book?

Yes it is.  It's ISBN number 0-9603288-0-7

BeeBiz>I'd like to know so that as soon as I can afford to do so I can get a copy of it.

I'm not sure where I got mine, but I think it was A.I. Root.

Finsky>Yes, I have natural tendency to make people sometimes mad Shocked Do not take this case personally.

I do not think it is Finsky's intention to be insulting.  Part of the problem is, although his English is very good at expressing complex beekeeping concepts, the little things that a "native speaker" would say to "disarm" their disagreement and appear more polite are much more complex.  Finsky is a very experienced and knowlegable beekeeper who generously shares what he knows about keeping bees in a very cold climate.  I, for one, and thankful for that.

Finsky, thank you.
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Michael Bush
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Kirk-o
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wow
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 07:54:32 PM »

wow!  wow!

relax

kirko
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 09:44:49 PM »

well Robo I was offened too!
 Not that my limited wisdom means anything in this forum...!
Nor do I want to chase anybody with knowledge away! or anyone without it!
 I personly have been learning alot on this forum and do appreciate
everyones input....about the questions I ask, as well as the questions others ask......!
 I do beleive that is what a forum is all about, sharing!
So that we may all bee better beekeepers!!!
 
  But come on you guys and gals (Afro style) is not a nice thing to say!!! shocked
 And has nothing to do with beekeeping unless you're talking about AHB's
I know, I've gone off topic before as well.....!
 
 I have felt the same way beebiz did in this post,... because of the way something was said as if I were a lower form of human!
 
 But really Finsky,
what is a shoe trampler ? cause I just really want to Know if I'm one cheesy
 
Quote
Do not take this case personally.
ooopppps! sry I allready let that happen embarassed my bad!
 Its your knowledge I value , but I question your values , not visa versa!:lol:  cheesy  cheesy  shocked

Ok I'll shut up wink
 ya your right robo he does make one stop and think!

Sorry they just let me out and I can't control myself yet rolleyes
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 10:28:40 PM »

Quote from: TREBOR
Its your knowledge I value , but I question your values , not visa versa!:lol:  cheesy  cheesy  shocked :


Well said.  My favorite proverb is:" Don't do like I say, use your own brains". Cool
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ctsoth
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2006, 10:30:32 PM »

I cherish all the things that I learn here by accident, and equally those people who choose to share them.

Good luck beebiz, I am starting up beekeeping this year and the cost of an extractor is limiting my actions now as well...  And I can't justify paying for an extractor with 1-2 hives....  Maybe I'll try my hand at building one...
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Ruben
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2006, 11:13:26 PM »

Quote
I do not think it is Finsky's intention to be insulting. Part of the problem is, although his English is very good at expressing complex beekeeping concepts, the little things that a "native speaker" would say to "disarm" their disagreement and appear more polite are much more complex. Finsky is a very experienced and knowlegable beekeeper who generously shares what he knows about keeping bees in a very cold climate. I, for one, and thankful for that.



Very well spoken MB, I also believe Finsky did not mean to offend anyone. Look at how diverse our language is even if you live here. I'm from the south and down here if someone said we're going to the apiary do you want to come with?       We would stand there waiting for them to finish the sentence.

I once took a trip up north to New York City,  I asked a man in the city-where's ya'lls phones. It took him 15 min to figure out I was asking him where are your telephones located. huh
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2006, 11:41:42 PM »

well glad thats settled
 Finsky,.........please please please tell me what a shoe trampler is?
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