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Author Topic: Non-toxic herbicide  (Read 832 times)
JackM
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« on: April 11, 2014, 09:57:43 AM »

My wife saw some stuff on FB about a grass and weed killer that is 'green' as far as toxicity.  It is made from vinegar, salt, and a spot of detergent (spreading agent).  This does not sound toxic to bees to me, it seems to work even on MOSS.  I have grass and weeds around the hives and am tired of weed wacking it.  Thinking on trying this but so hesitant right next to hives.  I can spray before they get moving about, but it would still be like a heavy dew.  I could even leave out the detergent.

What think folks, is this toxic to bees?
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D Coates
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 11:57:54 AM »

How can it be truly "green" if it's killing anything? 

Why not use Round Up?  Most importantly it's not toxic to bees, and it works.  I use it around my hives and know many others that do as well.
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danno
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 12:52:02 PM »

I use roundup all the time.  If your set on the "green" stuff just use vinegar in a spray bottle
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Billy B
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 01:20:30 PM »

This is probably a sensitive subject to be honest, but for effectiveness, glyphosates (e.g. Roundup) generally work.   Is it more or less toxic to bees than salt based solutions?  I'm not sure really.   But certainly salt is not non-toxic.   Most things can be toxic, it's a matter of dosage.   But it doesn't take much salt to be toxic to most organisms and it persists fairly long.   In many of the applications that it is being suggested for via these home-remedy tips on social media, it is a horrible choice.

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rober
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 01:49:46 PM »

billy- are you saying salt is a bad choice? I've used rock salt & mulch with no obvious side effects. some say it helps control hive beetle larva. when it rains I see the girls on it as well.
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Billy B
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 03:52:58 PM »

billy- are you saying salt is a bad choice? I've used rock salt & mulch with no obvious side effects.
I'm saying it *can* be a bad choice.   It is broad-spectrum, will sterilize the soil, killing the plants and all organisms in the soil.    In this particular use case, where a permanent lack of vegetation is desired, it might meet the needs.  I wouldn't be any more (or less) concerned about the bees when using the salt.     That was really my point ... there is nothing inherently less toxic about the salt solution.   And in the more general use case promoted in social media, it can have a greater negative impact than other options ... use it as a spot weed killer in your flower beds, for example, and you may find yourself a year later struggling to get something to grow where you sprayed the salt.   And of course "healthy" garden soil is full of living micro-organisms.   Salt simply isn't going to promote healthy soil.    But that isn't the intended application here, so again, may be OK ... I just wanted to point out that just because a solution is touted as "natural" doesn't necessarily make it "better" and certainly not non-toxic. 
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Santa Caras
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 04:22:11 PM »

The vinegar solution KINDA works. I've tried it several times and it kills some and turns some weeds just brown that eventually come back.  Roundup just works better all around anyway. Salt.....back in mediveal times...they would "sale the fields" of the defeated to starve them into submission. Salt isnt very good for the Earth. FATBEEMAN uses a cattle salt block in his yards that the bees eat some salt off of. Kinda intresting.
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Ken
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 06:14:21 AM »

Placing a mat under the hives would also work. Even a couple layers of old newspaper. I don't see my bee spending a lot of time directly around the base of the hive so once whatever you use drys ,will be okay. If you can get to bare dirt, keep preen (corn gluten) spread around. It stops seed germination until it biodegrades.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 06:55:41 AM »

      It depends on what you call nontoxic the Roman army used to salt the fields of their enemies and it killed everything for decades.  I have seen where Romans have poured salt on fields in North Africa that is still killing crops hundreds of years later.  One thing you can use that I know of that is not quite so toxic is boiling water.



                   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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amun-ra
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 06:19:45 PM »

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOT-DEVIL-GAS-BLOW-TORCH-WEED-KILLER-COMBO-KIT-NONTOXIC-/280723317933
Or maybe this is the solution for some
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2014, 06:22:43 AM »

How can it be truly "green" if it's killing anything? 

Why not use Round Up?  Most importantly it's not toxic to bees, and it works.  I use it around my hives and know many others that do as well.
Round up is not toxic???
Tell that to the beeks that just lost 80'000 hives in the almond orchards. When it gets combined with systemic poisons it wipes out a hive. It weakens the bees defense system.
Jim
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jayj200
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2014, 09:07:24 AM »

Ya all miss the point completely.
just putting anything into the ground water is not good.
salt and vinegar much better than chemicals period.
same as reclaimed water, put that into you lake and destroy it.
jay
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D Coates
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 09:33:26 AM »

How can it be truly "green" if it's killing anything?  

Why not use Round Up?  Most importantly it's not toxic to bees, and it works.  I use it around my hives and know many others that do as well.
Round up is not toxic???
Tell that to the beeks that just lost 80'000 hives in the almond orchards. When it gets combined with systemic poisons it wipes out a hive. It weakens the bees defense system.
Jim

80,000 hives dead and there's actual scientifically repeatable proof that Round Up caused it or played a part in it?  Are any of 80,000 hives deaths claimed directly related to Round Up?   Where's proof?  This is akin to the CCD and GMO "sky is falling" claims all over again if there's actual no proof.
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10framer
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 12:14:58 PM »

How can it be truly "green" if it's killing anything?  

Why not use Round Up?  Most importantly it's not toxic to bees, and it works.  I use it around my hives and know many others that do as well.
Round up is not toxic???
Tell that to the beeks that just lost 80'000 hives in the almond orchards. When it gets combined with systemic poisons it wipes out a hive. It weakens the bees defense system.
Jim

80,000 hives dead and there's actual scientifically repeatable proof that Round Up caused it or played a part in it?  Are any of 80,000 hives deaths claimed directly related to Round Up?   Where's proof?  This is akin to the CCD and GMO "sky is falling" claims all over again if there's actual no proof.

yeah, i'd say that 80,000 hives from all across the country stacked on top of each other (after they were stressed from shipping as well) probably had more to do with the problem than roundup.  i'd also say i have as much evidence to back it up......none.  we used to spray the yards with round up all the time.  that being said, i don't use it on my place at all (yet, but i'm getting tired of fighting blackberries).  mulch around the hives with pine straw.
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danno
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 12:32:52 PM »

Glyphosate is 22.5 times less toxic then Caffeine.  It does kill if your  "green".
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Billy B
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 01:03:26 PM »

Ya all miss the point completely.
just putting anything into the ground water is not good.
salt and vinegar much better than chemicals period.
same as reclaimed water, put that into you lake and destroy it.
jay

Well, salt and vinegar are chemicals too.  But even if what you meant was that they are better than synthetic chemicals, that really isn't a good blanket statement either.   Sodium choloride can have a longer half-life in soil than glyphosate, which actually breaks down fairly readily.   

But good to call out impacts to ground water ... you have to be very careful about anything that goes into the ground water, including the naturally occurring salts (which can travel deeper and have a longer half-life in soil than glyphosates, which generally affects surface water).
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10framer
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 01:51:47 PM »

http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2014.04.03.11.49.archive.html

80k hives were damaged not killed.  it was a fungicide mixed with an insect growth inhibitor. 
almond pollination always seems to be the common denominator when it comes to bee die offs but everybody wants to throw the blame at big chemical companies.  the almond growers need to learn how to keep bees and we need to stop interstate beekeeping for a few years and see what happens.  no comb crosses any state lines for 5 years and i bet the bee losses would drop (maybe not stabilize because of all the other problems, though).
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GSF
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 09:08:10 PM »

Someone either posted the link here or I just ran across it on you tube. Anyway, it showed several bee hives sitting on the edge of an almond grove. Then a few minutes later a tractor came right by them just spraying away. No wonder they come back sick or dead.
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Ken
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2014, 02:56:51 PM »

It's not always the almond growers. Sometime the bee brokers don't have them removed by the contracted date. It needs to be choreographed properly or things like this happen.They generally truck in 1 1/2 million colonies for the pollination. 80 thousand could have been in one holding yard beyond the removal date. The headline was the 80 thousand colonies,not too much about the details of why they were still there when the almonds were sprayed or if the almonds were sprayed before the contracted time. Did anyone research this further after the incident? I didn't,but may look into it.
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10framer
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2014, 07:38:01 PM »

ken, i'm not suggesting that it's the almond growers.  i think migratory beekeeping is the biggest part of the problem.  too many bees from too many different places drifting from hive to hive.
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