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Author Topic: Mobsters, Cronies or Middlemen?  (Read 1304 times)
ctsoth
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« on: February 14, 2006, 09:47:29 PM »

Unfortunately this post doesn't really have to do with the mafia.  It does however have to do with Italians, Carniolans and Hybrids.

My post is inspired by another thread, and with something I have been wrapping my brain around for a little while.

Most of what I have read reccomends to get bees from a breeder to get "pure" stock.  The reason being so your queen doesn't run off and mate with tom dick and hairy and you get some unproven mut.  If your apiary was well managed and you had nucs for queen rearing, wouldn't it make more sense to split your bees and get them to breed so that you could get some amount of natural selection to go on?  

Also, what is it about the F1 generation of a hybrid species, like Buckfasts for example that is so undiresable?  From what I have been able to find so far they are considered foul tempered?  Personally, the idea of an angsty bee doesn't bother me if it is a strong bee.  Then again, if the hive isn't safe around people then it shouldn't bee there...  So yeah, are reproducing hybrids all that bad?  Or are they super?

In regards to italians, just how big is their appetite in the winter, and are they suitable for Minnesota beekeeping?  

In regards to carniolans, does anyone know any good resources or have any books to reccomend in regards to swarming?  Or does anyone have good information on how to successfuly keep them without to much swarming.  Well, now that I think about it the swarming propensity isn't so bad if you do the splits yourself to produce nucs.  Does that work?

In regards to buckies, are they all their cracked up to be?
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2006, 10:22:53 PM »

Quote from: ctsoth


to get "pure" stock.  ..... and get them to breed so that you could get some amount of natural selection to go on?  ?


If you have 10 or 20 hives, it is impossible to maintain your own GOOD bee stock. Queens fly a couple of miles to mate with strange drones. Queen try to avoid incest.

"Pure" means that you have a queen, which daughters have  quite even features measured with those things you want.  It needs insemination or very isolated place were queens mate.

Quote

Also, what is it about the F1 generation of a hybrid species, like Buckfasts for example that is so undiresable?  From what I have been able to find so far they are considered foul tempered?  Personally, the idea of an angsty bee doesn't bother me if it is a strong bee.  Then again, if the hive isn't safe around people then it shouldn't bee there...  So yeah, are reproducing hybrids all that bad?  Or are they super??


Hybrid queens are very good, at least F1 = the first "nonpure" crossing.

The basic is this: To breed bees  (or what ever) is to select best individuals from large stock (gene pool)

As we say, all we have Einstein genes. This individual Einstein just had "replacement parts" (genes) which best fitted together.  

The idea is get variation where to take,  and select the bests.

When you have 500 or 1000 hives, you have better possibility to find some "Einsteins" and put them mate together to produce "little Einsteins".

But that good family still have genes of that population, but combination is good.  When small Einsteins breed with normal stock and do not practises selection, they genes have soon  same variation like others around.

When you take F2 or F3 queens the breeding selection looses its best sharp and you will get large variation, as we say normal distribution.

Quote
In regards to Italians, just how big is their appetite in the winter, and are they suitable for Minnesota beekeeping?  


I live in Finland at the level of Anchorage Alaska (60 north latitude) . The most popular bees in Finland are Italians.  Our professional beekeepers have selected Italian stocks which manage over long winter and forage well during short summer.

Our Italian consume 20 kg sugar during September to May. Our all hives are insulated. When I nursed bees in solid wood boxes without insulation hives consumed 50% more food during winter.  This is main issue.

Quote
In regards to Carniolans, does anyone know any good resources or have any books to recommend in regards to swarming?  ?


I had Carniolans 10 years and I tired to their swarming. It destroys honey yield.

Quote
..does anyone have good information on how to successfully keep them without to much swarming.


Many professionals keep hundreds of Carniolan hives but they do not tell how. [/quote]
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downunder
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2006, 05:15:11 AM »

Sorry Finsky,

Queens do not try to avoid incest. We have recently completed experiments in remote areas that confirm this. The reason they sometimes fly miles to mate is because DCA's Drone Congregation Areas are often a great distance from the hive.

The queen does not have any say in what they mate with, it is completely random.

We took two lines of bees and raised a queen from them. These sisters were inseminated with one single drone each (un-related).

Queens were raised from each of these lines and then open mated to use as drone father colonies. This means that all the drones produced are clones of the queen and therefore related 100% to the original lines created.

We then raised 45 queens from each line. And placed them in remote location where no other bees exist. We let 15 queens fly at a time with a certain population of drones. Related, mixed and unrelated populations. We did this with both the lines. There was no mating avoidance in any case. We genotyped the brood of every queen to confirm this. In all cases they mated with a full compliment of drones and in the mixed population there was a even distribution of subfamilies in all queens.

Our DCA's contained populations of at least 10,000 mature drones at each time.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2006, 07:15:08 AM »

>..does anyone have good information on how to successfully keep them without to much swarming.

If you want to read how, try Walt Wright's Nectar Managment.  He has a manuscript that his son in law will sell you. WaltWright_ at hot mail dot com

If you just want to do it easily, without the manuscript, keep the brood nest open.  Before they swarm they want to cut back on the brood so there isn't a need for all those nurse bees that will leave and they want to slim down the queen.  When the brood nest starts to contract (get smaller) put empty frames in the center of the brood nest.  You will probably have to do this twice in a season  It will cause the brood nest to expand again, keep them from getting a brood nest all clogged with honey and they will raise more brood for the harvest.  Of course, you also need to keep supers on when they need them, so they don't run out of room.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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FordGuy
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2006, 10:33:01 PM »

Quote from: downunder
Sorry Finsky,

Queens do not try to avoid incest. We have recently completed experiments in remote areas that confirm this. The reason they sometimes fly miles to mate is because DCA's Drone Congregation Areas are often a great distance from the hive.



I hear you say queens don't try to avoid it, but does apis mellifera try to avoid it?  Can you argue the process of remotely located DCAs discourages incest fairly effectively?
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downunder
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2006, 11:30:20 PM »

We also did this experiment in an relatively bee free area in a valley in the UK.

The queens had the opportunity to fly to DCA's some distance away a (few miles), but flew to the nearest one even when the related drone population was released. We again confirmed this by genotyping.

This indicates that the process is random. For the queen to have a choice it would be indicating that they could detect in flight related drones. In the frenzy that occurs in mating this seems unlikely.

However we are investigating wether there is any mechanism that neutralises or disposes of related sperm. We don't have the answers to that yet. Publications are currently in press.
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