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Author Topic: number overload?  (Read 2235 times)
kathyp
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« on: February 13, 2014, 03:57:07 PM »

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/where-did-your-tax-dollar-go

this is a page with some simple graphs and stuff to show where money goes, and where it's going to go.  their numbers are the OMB numbers.  below the first big picture are more that you can scroll through.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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hjon71
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 09:16:55 PM »

http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

At least this link mentions the untalked about spending, Tax Breaks.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 02:14:57 PM »

Quote
At least this link mentions the untalked about spending, Tax Breaks.

it's always amazed me that people can think that not taking money from someone, is spending.  how the heck does that work? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Keith13
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 08:25:43 AM »

That's the problem with liberals they think all money belongs to the government
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sterling
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 09:59:46 AM »

That's the problem with liberals they think all money belongs to the government

Thats just one of many problems.
Another problem is they think they should be able to tell you where to buy your health care insurance.  And what it should it cover.
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hjon71
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 10:03:33 AM »

The tax rate is set.
A tax break reduces that effective rate.
Call it whatever you want, the effect is the same.

I am a proponent of one tax for income derived from work and another( slightly higher) for all other income.
No deductions breaks loopholes or shelters.


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10framer
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 12:22:58 PM »

The tax rate is set.
A tax break reduces that effective rate.
Call it whatever you want, the effect is the same.

I am a proponent of one tax for income derived from work and another( slightly higher) for all other income.
No deductions breaks loopholes or shelters.




why should people be taxed more for investing?  who gets to define "work"?  how do you tax people that don't "work" (ssi, etc.)  do you really think that people won't find ways to avoid taxes no matter how they are imposed?  i'm a big fan of eliminating the irs and paying a national sales tax but even then there would be ways of avoiding paying taxes (bartering and the black market).  how do you feel about people getting deductions (or even getting back more than they pay in) for having kids?  i'm betting a lot of the people that whine about the rich getting tax breaks don't have a problem getting giant refunds because they have children.  i'm not rich and i don't have kids so neither applies to me but i'm not screaming about how unfair it is.   
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 12:27:22 PM »

i'll make it even easier.  flat tax on all income no matter source.  that would be welfare to billionaires dividends to business income after expenses.

  no convoluted deductions for business.  this is what we made.  this is what we spent.  this is what we owe.

you could get rid of most of the irs, except that small part that was needed to keep track of the business intake and output.  

people worry that this would impact charities and churches, but i think people would be charitable anyway.  maybe more so if they are not feeling robbed by people who have no skin in the game.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
10framer
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 12:38:50 PM »

i'll make it even easier.  flat tax on all income no matter source.  that would be welfare to billionaires dividends to business income after expenses.

  no convoluted deductions for business.  this is what we made.  this is what we spent.  this is what we owe.

you could get rid of most of the irs, except that small part that was needed to keep track of the business intake and output.  

people worry that this would impact charities and churches, but i think people would be charitable anyway.  maybe more so if they are not feeling robbed by people who have no skin in the game.

i could live with that.


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hjon71
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 01:19:58 PM »

The only difference between me and Kathy is that ( slightly higher ) part.

Work should be rewarded. A lower tax rate is a reward. Any other income gets the higher rate. The amoun of difference between the 2 shouldn't be much but it should reward those who produce.
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10framer
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 02:20:59 PM »

again, who defines "work"?  if someone is investing a ton of capital into a business that creates jobs they are working in my opinion.  they are also generating more tax money by hiring more tax payers. 
hjohn, that one difference is still designed to penalize the wealthy.  why should those with more be penalized if they are taking that wealth and using it in a way that keeps the economy moving.  what justifies penalizing those that have and or want more? 
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hjon71
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 03:33:45 PM »

Capital is worthless without Labor.
Or Labor employs Capital.

We want to encourage work/labor. No, I do not believe investing is work. Unless you mean your job is investing other peoples money, that is work.

TBeek recommended a book I have been reading, Progress and Poverty. Interesting stuff. I could go for a single Land tax. No other tax - Zero.
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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 06:00:31 PM »

again, who defines "work"?  if someone is investing a ton of capital into a business that creates jobs they are working in my opinion.  they are also generating more tax money by hiring more tax payers. 
hjohn, that one difference is still designed to penalize the wealthy.  why should those with more be penalized if they are taking that wealth and using it in a way that keeps the economy moving.  what justifies penalizing those that have and or want more?  Gordon Gekko is alive and well and living in some dark corner of the good ole usa Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 06:46:33 PM »

Not sure why you'd punish investment?   Investment is a good thing.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hjon71
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 07:29:28 PM »

You see the difference as a penalty, I see it as a reward. I believe labor is more important and benefits more people, thereby creating more wealth.

No bites on the single Land tax?
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2014, 09:09:37 PM »

i want a tax that everyone pays. no exceptions.  i can't see how the single land tax would accomplish that. 

without investment, you have no place for folks to labor.  investment is taking a risk on something believing that it will do well.  you might be wrong and lose everything.  if you are right, you should be rewarded for your risk.  think of it in the same way as putting money in a bank.  you get interest for the use of your money.  the difference is that money invested is not guaranteed any return. 

private investment is also a protection for the consumer.  if i invest in the BG Widget Co., i want to be very sure that they are putting out a good product.  if not, both they and i lose.  as a side benefit, the consumer profits because the investor cares about the product early on.

that's one of the reasons government "investment" is so bad.  they are risking OPM and they don't really care.  if it's lost or the product is bad...oh well. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hjon71
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2014, 10:49:10 PM »

i want a tax that everyone pays. no exceptions.  i can't see how the single land tax would accomplish that. 
We don't have that now.
It wouldn't at the beginning. But removing all other taxes would do wonders for kicking the economy into high gear, creating jobs galore. And as personal wealth increases so does property ownership.

Quote
without investment, you have no place for folks to labor.  investment is taking a risk on something believing that it will do well.  you might be wrong and lose everything.  if you are right, you should be rewarded for your risk.  think of it in the same way as putting money in a bank.  you get interest for the use of your money.  the difference is that money invested is not guaranteed any return. 

private investment is also a protection for the consumer.  if i invest in the BG Widget Co., i want to be very sure that they are putting out a good product.  if not, both they and i lose.  as a side benefit, the consumer profits because the investor cares about the product early on.

that's one of the reasons government "investment" is so bad.  they are risking OPM and they don't really care.  if it's lost or the product is bad...oh well. 

Other than the first line, I agree 100%.
People worked and lived before Capitalism. Capital does make labor/commerce more efficient. But it isn't the source of labor. Labor is the source of wealth. From wealth comes capital. Henry George makes an excellent point.
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10framer
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2014, 10:51:06 PM »

i have a friend that is in his 60's and owns all or part of something like 25 different businesses.  he started with one very small machine shop and built what in most of our eyes is an empire.  he no longer goes in to work but he still makes money from the businesses he created.  you think he should pay more for being ambitious and putting his neck on the line?  
i'm still waiting for anyone to explain to me why procreating is worthy of tax exemptions while driving the economy isn't.  
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GSF
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2014, 06:56:13 AM »

I have a couple of friends who are rumored to be in the millionaire club. My hat's off to them, they have/had ulcers and high blood pressure from the stress it created getting to where they are now. I'm proud for them and my hat's off to them.

I'm against raising land taxes real high. That's a legal way to make sure less folks own land.

I've read both books, The Fair Tax, and The Fair Tax(answering the critics). Read the second one first. They make a statement in there about our current tax code. The only reason we have so many tax laws is so the rich will have to slip the K street lawyers money to be exempted from said laws. Therefore the rich would be exempted from land taxes(or whatever). A friend of mine lives right next door to the Smoky Mountains National Park. He said years ago they (govt; state, county, cities) came in and raised the taxes so high that families who has had land for generations were forced to sell it because they could no longer afford to pay the taxes.
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hjon71
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2014, 08:44:11 AM »

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you think he should pay more for being ambitious and putting his neck on the line? i'm still waiting for anyone to explain to me why procreating is worthy of tax exemptions while driving the economy isn't.

I don't know how to be any clearer than I have been.
Just imagine how much more your friend could have done with a simple reduced tax structure during his build up. Is it too much to ask those who have been successful to pay 1or2 % more to help those coming up behind them? I would gladly swap what we have now.
As for paying to procreate- not a fan. I have never stated otherwise.

I have a couple of friends who are rumored to be in the millionaire club. My hat's off to them, they have/had ulcers and high blood pressure from the stress it created getting to where they are now. I'm proud for them and my hat's off to them. )

I'm against raising land taxes real high. That's a legal way to make sure less folks own land.

I've read both books, The Fair Tax, and The Fair Tax(answering the critics). Read the second one first. They make a statement in there about our current tax code. The only reason we have so many tax laws is so the rich will have to slip the K street lawyers money to be exempted from said laws. Therefore the rich would be exempted from land taxes(or whatever). A friend of mine lives right next door to the Smoky Mountains National Park. He said years ago they (govt; state, county, cities) came in and raised the taxes so high that families who has had land for generations were forced to sell it because they could no longer afford to pay the taxes.

I willing admit the single land tax is new to me. I'm not through reading yet, but close.
Do you think your friends could have paid the higher tax on land if that were the only tax to pay? No other tax at all.
I'm not a fan of any exemptions, they invite dishonesty.
Land is I believe the easiest way to go for a few reasons.
Land has value, that value x acreage = taxable amount. Sounds simple anyway.
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