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Author Topic: Coca Cola commercial  (Read 1842 times)
Keith13
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« on: February 03, 2014, 10:06:54 AM »

did anyone catch the Coke commercial where everyone sang America the beautiful in a foreign language? I found that sort of insulting to me as an American. I thought that America was a melting pot we brought all immigrants together and become one America. Now it seems all groups stay separated and segregated and stay with in their own groups.

thoughts?
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sterling
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 11:12:28 AM »

Was there even a white man in the commercial?
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 11:57:01 AM »

don't you know we are all one big happy world? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 12:14:20 AM »

My great grandfather left Czarist Russia (escaped when the soldiers came to draft him...the family story is that his mother and sisters distracted the soldiers while he left out the back door...when I was young I thought that meant they served them tea and strudel) and came to America.

He settled in New Bedford and supported his family with a horse drawn fruit cart.  He could communicate in many languages (as a port city there were many languages being spoken),  but never could read or write in English...Yiddish was his native tongue, and when reading or writing was required the kids would do it (I'm sure before the kids there were others in the community).

My grandfather (his son) was able to setup a hot dog cart at the beach when he graduated high school at 17.  One  day he passed a vacant storefront on the waterfront in the city, and with a handshake, rented it and opened a grocery store...lost everything twice (in hurricanes) but was able to support his family well and sent my mother to college,  and my uncle through medical school.  He would do various kinds of business deals (buy out a failing store and such).  When he died, there were several people whom he had loaned money to that  had been paying back the loans regularly...the terms were that any outstanding debt was wiped off the table...these were handshake loans, and they changed peoples lives and allowed them to start their own businesses and take care of their families.

His two children were much better off then him, and they were able to send all of their children through college...the 5 of us range from Lawyers to honey peddlers, none have been 'failures'.

Is this not _exactly_ the american dream?  My great grandfather couldn't read or write English, and lived in an Orthodox Jewish community that might be viewed as 'closed' by many.

God Bless America.

On a related note, I haven't fact checked it, but Colbert tonight pointed out that 'America the Beautiful' was written by a woman...a woman that lived with another woman for 20+ years in what was known as a 'Boston Marriage'.

deknow
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 05:22:20 AM »

deknow; Thanks for sharing part of your history and 'your' American Dream experience.  There are as many such stories as there are people.

(We rarely miss Colbert or Jon Stewert, how else does one get the news?)  laugh
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 09:52:21 AM »

...when I say 'God Bless America' in this context, I say (and type) it with a literal tear in my eye.

I was planning to post excerpts from the history of the shtetle from which my great grandfather left, but it is too much and too involved...culminating in the entire remaining Jewish population (with very few exceptions), marched to pits by their neighbors that had been dug...then shot, and buried (many alive).

Interestingly, it was a place known for its mead.  My grandparents were still living when we took up beekeeping, but I never heard anything about bees in the family history.

WW2 and after:
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/stoklishok/stoklishok2.html

Earlier history:
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/stoklishok/stoklishok1.html

This is the greatest country on earth.

deknow

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deknow
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 09:57:54 AM »

...I wanted to post this separately.

I do think that the government should work in English only.  It is important for competent interpreters to be available for court trials and such, but as far as official forms and such, English only.

Many who come here will never read and write English...but they have children and community members that do....a great opportunity for young people to be involved in their community and in the larger United States...a way to start business.

deknow
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Keith13
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 01:56:28 PM »

deknow

that is my point maybe I did not express it correctly. Immigrants at one time came to this country and did what ever was required to become a part of America and to live out the "dream".

Now I see immigrants that want nothing to do with the dream. They want to wave the Mexican flag or Russian flag or what ever flag. They refer to themselves as Mexican American, Irish American, German American. What happened to them referring to themselves as American by way of wherever. I am American by way of my grand parents from Germany. I would never refer to myself as German American. I am American my grand parents worked all day and learned English at night so they could assimilate into American culture. They stood up and sang the American anthem in English even though they had no clue what the words meant in the beginning. Never would they have sung America the beautiful in German. My grand parents had more respect for America.

Also yes America the Beautiful was written by a lesbian who cares she was an American. She wrote it in English

Keith
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 02:15:00 PM »

As I stated, my great grandfather did not learn to read and write English, and he lived in what would be seen by most (myself included) as a closed insular community.  He did interface with others (he had a fruit cart), but mostly associated with other Orthodox Jews from his community, spoke mostly Yiddish, prayed in Herbrew, and made sure his children married other Orthodox Jews from within the community.

He was absolutely an American, but I doubt his English was any better than many of the Chinese ladies that we meet at market that barely speak English....they get along well enough to do business (as my great grandfather could with all of the non English speaking communities he dealt with in New Bedford), but it would be a stretch to call this 'speaking English'.

For him, singing America the Beautiful in English would have been like ABBA singing 'Dancing Queen' (or me reading Hebrew out loud)...the sounds are there, but no clue what they/I am saying.   I'm much more concerned with the authentic expression of feeling and thought that comes from speaking from one's native tongue than I am with making the appropriate noises.

Making all government forms in English only is, I think, a worthy step to take.  Being upset with America the Beautiful being sung by non-whites in other languages in the act of trying to sell more sugar water with caffine seems to be missing the point.

"I love America" parroted as a phonetic excercise is a superficial act...saying "I love America" in the language that you _think in_ has meaning for the person speaking.

deknow
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 02:23:28 PM »

My grandmother on the other side of the family had German roots...but she desperately didn't want to be seen as an "Immigrant" or 'ethnic'.

When she talked about her family history, they came from England (the ship that took them from Germany came through England). 

She had my father's Bar Mitzvah party filmed in 16mm...a few years ago I had the film transferred to digital before it fell apart completely...the captions do not say "Bar Mitzvah", but "Confirmation".  There is no 'Jewishness' in the party whatsoever...I don't see this as "American" and I don't see it as 'honest', and I don't see it as 'progress'.

deknow
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 07:34:31 AM »

If anything makes this Country great, particularly in the eyes of the rest of the World, it is our general acceptance of multiculturalism.  

IMO; it is 'one' thing that we all can be proud of it, that we can/should embrace and allow to naturally expand.  Those among us who truly believe in justice, liberty and freedom should back up those beliefs by exposing and condemning those who resist the inevitable expansion of even more multiculturalism in America and the world through their own self serving hate and bigotry.   We cannot tolerate bigotry and call ourselves a freedom loving people at the same time.

I know its scary for some…but acceptance of the inevitable will feel better in the long run, short run too Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 09:10:17 AM »

So much for the melting pot huh
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 09:52:57 AM »

For thousands of years, self preservation has been a good thing. Now, too many want to change it's definition to self serving hate and bigotry. It was the fall of Rome, and it is now becoming the fall of the USA. Sure glad I will be gone 25 years from now.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 10:05:01 AM »

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If anything makes this Country great, particularly in the eyes of the rest of the World, it is our general acceptance of multiculturalism. 

you could not be more wrong.

  as a 3rd generation american, i can tell you that "multi-culturalism" was never an attraction.  being American was the attraction.  it meant something special. it meant opportunity.  you NEVER saw the flags of the home country paraded down the streets and demands of accommodation made.  we did keep some of our traditions, foods, etc. but as an addition to being Americana, not to the exclusion of it. 

multi-culturalism does not work.  ask Canada, or any of the European countries that have tried it.  it divides the people and fractures the nation.

what has changed is the reason people come here.  they don't come for opportunity.  they come for stuff.  they don't care if they are American as long as they get that package of info on how to apply for stuff, the second they get off the boat.

again, not rocket science and nothing for us to learn.  we could look to any other country and see that they are trying kill the idea of multi-culturalism because it's killing their societies.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 10:09:14 AM »

New Bedford is a rough city by any standard.

When my grandfather was a child he was literally 'scalped' by some older boys who had seen some cowboy/indian movie.  He never said it was because he was Jewish, but it is unlikely it wasn't related.

When my mother was growing up in New Bedford, she was often chased home from school by other kids who were throwing rocks at her because she was Jewish.

Ahhh...the self preservation of bigots....so nice to see.   rolleyes

deknow
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T Beek
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 10:09:35 AM »

So much for the melting pot huh

I think the melting pot pot is coming along fine, all things considered.  Could the full transition be quicker?  Its not up to me, but come it will.

iddee;  We only have 'one' world, we are but one organism out of billions feeding off of and then nourishing (?) our only home.  

As beekeepers (or most any small farmer) it couldn't/shouldn't be more clear (to me)….this obvious connection to 'everything' that exists or ever has existed, including you my brother.  The more advanced our society becomes the more I believe we must recognize and resist the temptation to draw imaginary lines in the sand with our collective brothers and sisters, all of them.  

This is the message of the worlds most renowned profits.
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iddee
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 10:48:16 AM »

You cannot help others before you secure yourself. If you do, you both fail. If you don't protect what you have and control how and by whom it is used, you will end with nothing. I do not consider that bigotry. To me, bigotry is telling others to give up what they have, while hoarding what you have. I don't do that, the liberals do.
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2014, 11:17:07 AM »

And we all know that we can all secure ourselves without (or before) we get help from others, right?

But back to the Coke commercial.....

I don't understand how anyone could feel 'offended as an American' by America the Beautiful being sung in other languages by a multinational corporation that sells sugar water and caffine at hugely inflated prices in a commercial that is aired during a television event that is designed solely to sell things that no one needs.

I think there is much more actual harm to 'the people' by making them think that drinking a certain brand of beer will get them bikini clad models and a speed boat to keep them in.  This is demonstrably untrue...whereas we know for a fact that, at least my great grandfather who couldn't really speak English contributed exactly to what we all can agree upon to building the country and pushing the American Dream forward.

deknow
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »

Bigots rarely if ever recognize their own prejudices.  Its not part of their DNA….really, its true!  Its how the behavior is justified in the bigot mind.  Usually without ever realizing (caring?) or accepting any responsibility for how offensive their statements can be.  Also; It often gets turned around in a futile defense of certain mythical ideologies, leaving the bigot irrationally believing 'they' are the ones being victimized  shocked.  or is it just DENIAL?….. Wink

Examples are above…...


"If you're gonna go round' pointing fingers at others make sure your hands are clean"    -Bob Marley



(I haven't drank a COKE (or any soda) in over 40 years).  For those looking;  Coke is well known for the theft of third world water rights from people they've forced into slavery (LABOR) and the purchasing of water that was once freely available.  Between COKE and NESTLE, they've about sewn up the exclusive rights to own and/or control a large portion of the worlds fresh water.  And they ain't done yet….

Our future 'water wars' will make our current oil wars seem like a cake walk……….Can't you all wait?Huh??
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2014, 04:46:00 PM »

Seems to me that idiots who can't come up with an intelligent reply have a normal routine of calling the other side names like bigot and racist. Seems to be proven more every day.

PS. Their were no names mentioned in the above posts, and there were no names mentioned in this post, so therefore no member has been called any name.
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2014, 06:04:44 PM »

....because we all know (or at least joke about in polite company) that black people are black because they are full of 'bs'...right?
Makes one wonder what white men are full of...presumably something white in color?
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2014, 06:09:00 PM »

there's a segment of the population invested in the collective.  the great and happy federation of nations, Star Trek style.

when you figure out how to reconcile the ideologies of a Pol Pot or Mao, with a Ghandi, let me know. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2014, 06:17:07 PM »

Black = BS....bull

White = BS...bear


That answer your question?

Different, but neither as good as uneaten hay or berries.   Kiss Kiss grin grin
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 06:44:05 PM »

It seems rather obvious (at least to me) that our 'melting pot' has had to endure all kinds of changes that came from ideologies that were not 'American' ideologies at the time.
The most obvious are things like giving women the right to vote (or earn a living by serving in the military)....The civil rights marches were clearly in opposition to what many (if not most) in Alabama considered 'American values'.
Note that Ghandi has a bit more traction in our American society than Pol Pot.  That isn't an accident or a random occurrence...it is a direct result of the general direction of 'change' in our nation...one that moves towards giving individuals the right to be judged as individuals rather than judged by some cartoonish stereotype or judged because they look like someone else.
There is a lot about what is happening in our country that I think is of great concern.  There is little (if anything) that I support our current president on.  But a Coke commercial that is offensive to Americans because they aren't singing in English and there are no white men on the 20 second spot?  Coke is sold in over 200 countries, and less than half of their revenue comes from the US.

deknow
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 07:38:51 PM »

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It seems rather obvious (at least to me) that our 'melting pot' has had to endure all kinds of changes that came from ideologies that were not 'American' ideologies at the time.

what you are talking about is behaviors, not ideology.  it was ideology that allowed us to correct when we needed to.  it might have taken us a while to realize that the self evident truth that all men are created equal, applied to blacks, but we got there.  took longer to extend that equality to women....and there are days i think that was a mistake!   evil

the ideology should not be hard to understand if you read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the writings of the founders.  boiled down to it's base, it's about opportunity free from the oppression of the government.  that's where we lost it.  we traded stuff/help, for our freedom/opportunity. 

which brings us to multi-culturalism.....look at the places these folks come from.  they are, for the most part, socialist countries.  if not outright socialist, then countries with heavy social welfare programs.  in many countries south of the border, the church functions as much as the government as a social welfare organization.  either way, the hand goes out and something goes in it...even if not much.  so why not come to a country that can give you more?  it's the system you are used to.  it's what you expect.  it's what you get.  you demand more because no one is telling you that if you come here the only thing you'll be handed is opportunity.  and, BTW, you don't have to learn the language and if you break the law, you get rewarded.  heck of a deal.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2014, 03:23:16 AM »

So far I have read some post which are fairly accusatory. A few days ago one posted, " I do not support using race as a weapon against another!" ( same meaning ) this just after this poster stated earlier, same post, "White males fault". (same meaning) Now it seems, if you love America's past and America's culture and want to protect it, you are called a "Bigot" .

  Deknow.  Can people disagree without hate? Some of us do not like the direction the country is taking. Does this have to mean we are "Bigots"? If I expect people to follow our laws, am I a "Bigot"? This crap, this name calling, just because you disagree is discusting!




 
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2014, 06:48:08 AM »

Seems to me that idiots who can't come up with an intelligent reply have a normal routine of calling the other side names like bigot and racist. Seems to be proven more every day.

PS. Their were no names mentioned in the above posts, and there were no names mentioned in this post, so therefore no member has been called any name.

Agreed;  its more like one of those 'if the shoe fits' kinda situations…... Smiley  its not like the bigots among us are hiding though.  Undecided  some of them are simply having their hate filled rants (offensive remarks) challenged by other members is all, whether its realized by the bigots or not.

BIGOT (per Webster's) ; 1. a person who holds blindly and 'intolerantly' to a particular creed, opinion, etc. 2. a narrow minded prejudiced person.  That's my own emphasis placed on the word 'intolerantly.'
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2014, 09:32:55 AM »

WOW. Thanks, Tbeek. Now maybe I can understand where your posts are coming from a lot better. That's the best I've ever seen you explain your side.
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2014, 10:49:08 AM »

_I_ don't like the direction the country is taking.  I've tried to be clear about that, as it is the truth, and I don't much appreciate being pidgin holed as a left wing nut.

What I've tried to point out is that Americans who don't speak English are still Americans.  Languages other than English being spoken are nothing new.  Americans who never learned to speak, read, or write English (like my great grandfather, like many of my honey customers) are part of the American Dream, and have contributed greatly to building this country.

Again, we are talking about a multinational corporation (selling sugar water) buying expensive advertising time in the only grand cultural event where the content of the advertisements are considered part of the event.  Coke paid something like 4 million dollars for the spot (just to air it).  If it was NPR programming, one could ask why the government is spending money on it...but this is Coke spending their own  money. 

My great grandfather (if he were alive today) would express to you how deeply he loves this country...in Yiddish.  He probably could communicate it to you in English and hand gestures if you didn't understand Yiddish in a way that you could understand, but to him, those words would just be sounds.  Especially if one looked at his legacy (which I described in great detail...it's where I came from), would you consider his heartfelt expression in Yiddish offensive? 

Perhaps the real problem is that Coke used America the Beautiful (in any language) to sell sugar water to people that don't need it...I could buy that argument easily....but on the other hand, there is little that is more American than selling sugar water to those that don't need it Smiley

Regarding Kathy's comments...the problem is that the _same_ document (constitution) that we now look to to justify our view that 'all men are created equal' was used by the great men (I'm not being sarcastic...the founding fathers were great by any measure) to justify owning the children of people they owned...just because they were born.  The same label of 'American  Values' that charges us to treat black, yellow, white, female, male with equal respect (if deserved by the individual in question) was used to hang 'strange fruit' from the trees.  It is hard to see the 'ideology' of 'all men are created equal' as something concrete and self evident in our culture when newborn babies were owned for being born to owned people (let's not even get into Jefferson on this one)...to be bought, sold, beaten, tortured, killed (a last resort...a dead slave can't work, be sold, or make more slaves) by the same people that wrote (and signed) 'all men are created equal'.

In this way, the constitution is like the bible....used to justify all manner of good work and evil deeds throughout history.  They are great works and have had a profound effect on advancing culture, but if 'loving thy neighbor' _can_ be a reason to force heathens (or jews) to convert, if 'all men are created equal' _can_ be used to dismiss blacks and women as unworthy of voting, owning land ,or being free, we really have to take a step back and not give anyone that thumps a bible or the constitution credit for being christian or american in nature.

If one had a lover who's first language (the one they think  in) was not english, would one feel 'connected' if they forced english words of passion and desire out of their mouths for your benefit because they are loving in the US?  Without getting graphic, I can't imagine true passion being expressed in this way...I would feel the passion from them when they couldn't help themselves but to express in the language of their mind.

I missed the Vietnam era (I was born in 69), but grew up with all the cultural references, tv shows, and movies.  Forgive me for being a bit stereotypical here, but this is what comes to mind.  I know that 'me love you long time' isn't a passionate statement...it is a shallow phonetic proposition....the same way that 'god bless america' would be for a non-native english speaker.  Is that kind of pantomime of any value?

deknow
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2014, 12:03:33 PM »

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.the problem is that the _same_ document (constitution) that we now look to to justify our view that 'all men are created equal' was used by the great men (I'm not being sarcastic...the founding fathers were great by any measure) to justify owning the children of people they owned...just because they were born.

this needs a little correcting   Wink

there is nothing in the constitution that addresses slavery one way or the other.  it was debated, but because the founders came to the conclusion that there would not be an agreement allowing them to ratify the constitution, they set it aside.  the argument later became one of states rights and that was about far more than slavery.  the war was not about slavery. slavery was about to die it's own death.  it was becoming more expensive to buy and keep slaves than to hire labor.  most of the founders, including the slave owning founders, were not in favor of slavery. 

i don't think the argument is about people having different languages.  this commercial hit some people wrong because of the current immigration debate and because many of us are seeing mexican flags on our streets as those flying them demand considerations the do not deserve.  groups like La Raza do not do their cause any favors and they hurt other immigrants not from Mexico.
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2014, 03:09:58 PM »

Quote frm kathyp; "most of the founders, including the slave owning founders, were not in favor of slavery" 

You must be kidding, right?  Please don't force me to provide a lesson in historical fact (my fingers get tired too, ya know)). 

While I might agree that slavery (per say) wasn't what motivated the civil war entirely (at least not in the open so much), the abolishment of slavery most certainly was the greatest threat to maintaining the 'wealth' derived by owning slaves, particularly in the South.  We can nit=pick and say the civil war wasn't fought over slavery but the truth is readily available.  IT WAS ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!!  And People being treated like CAPITAL….like slaves……in order to create WEALTH….…somethings never change. (SEE COKE's LABOR practices worldwide for examples).

Some might still proclaim the old adage "cotton is king" but in reality cotton would have kept most southerns at the time, paupers without the slave LABOR used to create the WEALTH for the Plantation owners.

I believe it when I say;  "Slavery didn't end after the civil war, the slave masters just figured out a way to enslave us without housing and feeding us"  (They designed a system that forces the 'middle class' pay for it all…..the RICH and the POOR……...what a deal…if you're RICH.  Wink
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2014, 03:18:18 PM »

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You must be kidding, right?  Please don't force me to provide a lesson in historical fact (my fingers get tired too, ya know)). 

you would benefit from more reading.  reading would rest your fingers.

Quote
Some might still proclaim the old adage "cotton is king" but in reality cotton would have kept most southerns at the time, paupers without the slave LABOR used to create the WEALTH for the Plantation owners.

only temporarily.  as the cost of procuring and keeping slave went up and they entered the age of mechanized labor, slavery was becoming less attractive except for a few very large growing operations and contrary to movies, the very large growing operations were not the majority. 

it was about protecting the south.  the rights of the states and the wealth of the south.  slavery was a part of that.  consider that what Lincoln did was as much a shock to constitutionalists then, as some of the things that we see happening now.  while his intentions were good, what he did was illegal....and he got away with it....after how many deaths and the destruction of 1/2 the country.....

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2014, 05:28:44 PM »

Seems to me that idiots who can't come up with an intelligent reply have a normal routine of calling the other side names like bigot and racist. Seems to be proven more every day.

PS. Their were no names mentioned in the above posts, and there were no names mentioned in this post, so therefore no member has been called any name.

What is wrong with American Society? .........again! Wink if you are in a hole, stop digging! Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2014, 06:10:41 PM »

Who's in a hole?

I'm on top of the mountain. It's those poor blokes that never made it across the pond that I pity.
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2014, 06:34:45 AM »

kathyp;  Do you want to compare personal libraries sometime?  Wink  Based on your insult I think you'd be surprised.  Have you ever read 'anything' I've presented on this forum?
Personally I find 'first person accounts' to be extremely valuable when reading or trying to understand history.  The student must be willing to dig pretty deep and get plenty dirty in the process.


Ummm- you do know….they 'all' get away with it….except for those who met an assassins bullet.
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2014, 03:24:29 PM »

there is nothing in the constitution that addresses slavery one way or the other. 
This is precisely my point.

You have this constitution, a bunch of words (written in English), including, "All men are created equal" and "These truths we hold self evident".

In our modern perspective, we see that black people and women are clearly 'men' in this context....and we look at the constittuion and say, 'of course this was the intent all along, it just took us some time to implement it'.

...but when the same words are bandied about by people (good and great people) who didn't see black people as equal (or probably even human), who didn't see women as 'men' in the context of liberty and freedom, those excluded, 'non-men' could be bought, sold, beaten, killed...specifically a child born to a slave (even if their father was the slaves white male owner) was perhaps 'created equal', but was born into chattel slavery.  This is not indentured servitude, not a prison for committing a crime, but born owned because they were not 'men' as described in the constitution.


As the constitution was read at the time, slave owners, husbands, and fathers could write in good conscious, "All men are created equal" without feeling like total hypocrites.

To quote someone i won't name, "...it all depends on what the definition of is is'.

Does the constitution say 'slavery is cool'...no it doesn't.  Did, the words, as they were understood at the time make an exception to 'all men are created equal' large enough for slavery to drive through...you betcha.

Two different times, same (English) words, same document...vastly different meanings.  Therefore, although we (certainly I) can appreciate the incredible step forward the US constitution was and remains, one cannot look at it and say that it has not been used to justify slavery, which makes our ability to rely on it as a concrete set of values limited.  It remains a great document and a great tool, but because the meaning of words has changed (and will continue to change), we cannot rely on it as 'ideology' in the way you have tried to, at least in my opinion.

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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2014, 05:10:33 PM »

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It remains a great document and a great tool, but because the meaning of words has changed (and will continue to change), we cannot rely on it as 'ideology' in the way you have tried to, at least in my opinion.

i think your post proves that we not only can, but certainly should. 

they were doing something that had never been done.  bits had been tried here and there, but the concept of rights that come from your maker and do not depend on the whims of man, was new.  they then built a framework for that concept and it was the constitution. the entire purpose of the constitution was to limit our exposure to the whims of man. they also knew that there might be some things that needed tweaking, so they built in a mechanism for that.

it is true that it took some time for people to catch up with the constitution, but it was not the constitution that was flawed, it was the people. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2014, 07:01:03 AM »

There's a very good reason the U.S Constitution wasn't written in stone. 

It was purposely designed to evolve 'with' the advancement (?) of humanity, not to keep us stuck with ideological dogma (s) and drama (s).   cool

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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2014, 09:10:24 AM »

It wasn't written in stone. There are prescribed methods of changing it. Not one of the prescribed methods is legislative,judicial or via executive fiat.And it has been changed several times. Through the proper methods.
This seems to be lost on the modern day politicians. Having executive agencies(EPA,NSA, DOE,IRS ,to name a few ) writing law is very questionable to say the least.
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2014, 09:55:15 AM »

It wasn't written in stone. There are prescribed methods of changing it. Not one of the prescribed methods is legislative,judicial or via executive fiat.And it has been changed several times. Through the proper methods.
This seems to be lost on the modern day politicians. Having executive agencies(EPA,NSA, DOE,IRS ,to name a few ) writing law is very questionable to say the least.

I don't know about it being 'lost on the modern day politicians.'  I honestly think they know exactly what they are doing and on whose behalf.  I believe its our 'citizens' who are the ones that are lost (dazed, distracted and purposely divided) and/or have forgotten or never knew or have been taught about their power to take back a 'stolen' Country (or planet).

FYI;  It is 'Corporations' that dictate the majority of policy these days….'through' their ownership of the agencies/Departments (and many more) that were mentioned.  This constant blaming of the "government we helped create' is counterproductive and only serves to obscure where any blame actually belongs………….We the people must 'take' some responsibility for the predicament we've placed ourselves…………..Unfortunately, it will take considerable self-reflection by the citizenry……………….which will be resisted and/or stifled by the true elite at all costs. 

None of this is new….after over 2,000 years or so it has only been perfected in its evolution, along with "our" collective cooperation in its creation.
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2014, 04:27:53 PM »

It's all those rich capitalists who think they own the world and abuse the little guy!!! Really?

It's the government's fault!! They don't take enough from the rich and give it to the poor. Really?

Or maybe it's the government's fault because they take too much from the rich and give it to the poor. Really?

News Flash...this world is headed down hill because the people "of this world" are blind to some very big realities. TBeek, you actually hit on one thing with which I agree. "We the people must 'take' some responsibility for the predicament we've placed ourselves" in. Coke is so successful at whatever they do because we the people buy their product. If we stop buying, they will either change or die as a corporation. Our leaders in Washington have power because we put them in power. If we stop voting for politicians with ideals we see in office today, the politicians will change to reflect what gets them elected.

Problem is, our culture has shifted a long way from where it was even 50 years ago. Today's culture says there is no absolute truth. You make your own truth. You make your own morals. You take what you can take and only give back what they force you to give. Don't be an American. Be an "(insert your ethnic background) American."

I think most of us would agree that the USA was the greatest nation on the planet 50 or 100 years ago. That's why the melting pot was a reality. People from everywhere wanted to come here. Why?? Because of who we were then. Our culture. Our principles. Our freedom of opportunity. Why mess with a good thing? Progress??? Many empires and nations in the past "progressed" themselves out of existence. We're on the road down, folks.

And I'll say it because it's true, even if many of you disagree. The USA, or some culture shift, is not the answer to your future. Jesus is.           
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2014, 07:25:29 PM »

Who's in a hole?

I'm on top of the mountain. It's those poor blokes that never made it across the pond that I pity.
Iddee Iddee, please don't feel sorry for me it would break my heart. Once, one of the times  have visited your country it was just after the 9/11 thing the guy on the imigration/pasport control desk asked why was I entering the US? I have come for a holiday says I, will you be leaving he asks? why should I not be leaving? ask I. I have secure employment, a home, my children are in school all my relatives are at home, why would I want to stay here? .......I think the USA is a great country..................to visit! He looked perplexed, stamped my passport without a smile, how to make friends and influence people or more importantly.......money spending tourists!!! Sad So iddee, we are not all bothered about being on this side of the pond as you patronisingly put it.

iddee please don't be put off by this mini rant, keep on beating up the perceived dang lefties so they can beat up the eaqually perceived neo-cons, or my late night entertainment will be gone! boo hoo Wink
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