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Author Topic: THE REGRESSION FORUM  (Read 11936 times)
derbeemeister
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2006, 07:30:13 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
> How can I describe the statement that "their very existence depends on" science in any other way when humans DO exist in many places without these “scientific” advances and obviously have for many millennia?  

Because much of what they depend on IS science, science being the accumulation of accurate information about the environment and the ability to apply it. Not simply book learning. Science was used by the Mesopotamians and so on.

Even primitive hunters are using "science" to create the best weapons, to thoroughly know their prey, to perfect their techiniques in killing and preserving the food.

As far as surviving without science, I never said nor meant that nobody would survive without it, but the majority of people leaving in developed countries depend on it for survival. They wouldn't last very long if placed in a situation where they had to use their own wits to survive. And remember what happened to the native americans when the whites came. Most died of small pox.

* * *

You still haven't shown any study where small cell hives were compared to large cell hives to see which survive better. Even if the mites reproduce somewhat less in small cells, these colonies could still succumb to mite collapse.

If you were seriously ill and you were offered the choice of a treatment that had been through extensive clinical trials with documented results -- or a new untested treatment, -- which would you want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on?

Given such a choice, I wouldn't take a folk remedy even if it were free. Is that being conservative, or skeptical? All I am asking for is proof in the scientific sense; it isn't my fault if you can't find any and bring it here.

* * *

Recently I pondered how feral bees were able to survive in the wilds longer than hived bees, and I thought it could have to do with their swarming, which creates a break in the brood rearing cycle. So I searched and found a study where  hives were set up in two groups in one location. One group was managed the regular way, the others were not supered and allowed to swarm.

The first year, the swarmers had much fewer mites in the fall. The second year, the mite levels were about the same in both groups.

That is the sort of study  I am talking about, one that actually demonstrates the effect of the proposed treatment.


* * *

Finally, I started this thread to talk about techniques OTHER than small cells. I have already read all the stuff at Bee Source, I read most of it 5 years ago. If it works, fine. I am interested in management techniques that people can use on regular hives without special equipment; ones that eveyone can try.


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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2006, 07:55:57 AM »

Quote from: derbeemeister
I started this thread to talk about techniques OTHER than small cells.


I have wondered the variations to use exluder. I use it very seldom and in foraging hives at all.  However professional use it. It fastens nursing operations, I suppose.

But there are many techniques:

1) just put it between brood and honey
2) put it when foraging season is almost end
3) prevent swarming by lifting brood above excluder
4) force queen to lay eggs in one box  lowest or uppermost
5) force queen lay in two box

and what else succesive....

Have you seen somewhere that several methods have presented .
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derbeemeister
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2006, 09:08:23 AM »

Quote from: Finsky


I have wondered the variations to use excluder. I use it very seldom and in foraging hives at all.  However professional use it. It fastens nursing operations, I suppose.

ME:

I regard the queen excluder as a personal preference. They have good and bad points. They keep the line between the brood nest clear and this can be a good thing.

When you take the honey supers off, it is very handy to know that there is no brood and no queen wandering around in there, especially if you blow the bees out or use bee escapes.

Sometimes, especially in a poor honey flow, or with a weak colony, they will prevent the bees expansion upward.

Hives can be managed without them, of course. Maybe you will get more honey and more brood this way. If you fume the bees down, or brush them off, you don't have to worry so much about the queen being up.

Moving brood above the excluder is a good plan to alleviate crowding in the brood area. BUT! be sure to check back in a week to make sure they don't raise a queen up there!

Better still, use the brood to make nucs. If you are making splits on a regular basis, you are not understanding the basic principle of beekeeping as taught by Langstroth, Brother Adam and so on.


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Herve Abeille
derbeemeister
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2006, 09:20:57 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush


Does this prove that the odds are not 50/50? No it proves my sample was too small to be statistically valid.

ME:

It also proves that if you depend on chance or "luck" you can never know what the outcome will be. That's why the coin toss is used, you have no way of knowing the outcome.

Personally, when I set up a new hive, I want the outcome to be better than 50/50 that it will survive, so I look for methods that have been shown to work in the majority of cases.

Now here is an interesting article that will further separate us, no doubt:

! EXCERPTED !

from:
Beyond ABC and 123: The Inhandig Tribal School in Malaybalay City
By H. Marcos C. Mordeno / MindaNews / 12 February 2006

MALAYBALAY CITY -- Want to learn weather forecasting without the aid of satellites, or wildlife hunting and healing with the use of herbs and prayers alone? Then come to the Inhandig Tribal School, a largely self-help school where the subjects taught revolve around the traditions and practices of the Bukidnon, one of the seven tribes in Bukidnon province.

The lessons also include reading, writing, and sanitation. But for the most part the students – children as well as grown-ups – get to learn about who they are and where they came from, an approach that seeks to promote ethnic pride and identity.

* * *

Apart from or as an extension of her being a shaman, Bae Inatlawan is also a healer, an expert in the indigenous ways of curing illnesses with herbs and prayers. Years of practice and experience have honed her ability to know which plants can cure certain diseases. But she says she never extracts the medicinal parts of these plants without first offering a prayer.

This is the beauty of Bukidnon culture. Nothing happens without a ritual or prayer; the people are in constant communion with Magbabaya (Supreme Being) and the spirits that influence the conduct of their earthly affairs.
“I have never taken any medicine from a pharmacy,” declares the diminutive female chieftain, as if to emphasize the excellent curative properties of forest flora and the prayers that accompany each healing ritual.

It can thus be said that in this obscure spot on earth faith and science converge.

* * *

In addition to its recreational activities, the school, through Datu Matun-an Federico Docenos, trains the students in the ways of the tribe when its members were still leading a hunter-gatherer existence -- wildlife hunting and trapping, honeybee collection and fishing. These activities are collectively called panlagutum, i. e., they are only done whenever food is scarce or when the farmers are still waiting for their crops to be harvested.
Panlagutum exemplifies the need to learn the past as a weapon of survival. And there could be no better way for the Bukidnon tribe to learn its past than through the tribal school and the unique lessons of life that it teaches.

ME:

While I admire Bae Inatlawan, and her FAITH, I could never brag that I have never been to a pharmacy. I currently have two conditions that could lead to my premature death and both of them are being treated by expensive pharmaceuticals. Why do I use these chemicals?

Because the odds are if I don't I will die from one or the other of these conditions. If I wanted to prove my FAITH in nature, or God, or herbs, I could forego such treatments. However, I have children and I feel obligated to stay alive at least until they can support themselves without me.

So for me, SCIENCE and PROOF trumps FAITH. For someone else it may be the reverse. But it is a big world and there is room for more than one point of view.

Herve Abeille
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2006, 09:38:47 AM »

Quote from: derbeemeister
if you blow the bees out or use bee escapes.


OK, one reason

Quote
Sometimes, especially in a poor honey flow, or with a weak colony, they will prevent the bees expansion upward.


So they do but brood frames are easy to drop down. Our busy season is very short, 2 months. I use 3 deeps for brood and queens use to stay there.

Quote
Moving brood above the excluder is a good plan to alleviate crowding in the brood area. BUT! be sure to check back in a week to make sure they don't raise a queen up there!


I have had difficulties with swarming and I aimed to try that trick. But those extra queens do not fit to my plans.

Quote
Better still, use the brood to make nucs. If you are making splits on a regular basis.


To make nucs means to raise queens very early.  I do not split hives. It destroyes yield. I try to make towers.  To keep stong hives as moderate seems to be good and it means that I must raise queens as early as possible.  I have just learned from MAAREC sites that best hives swarm first  Tongue

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/valmis3.jpg
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derbeemeister
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2006, 10:32:46 AM »

Quote from: Finsky


To make nucs means to raise queens very early.  I do not split hives. It destroyes yield. I try to make towers.  To keep stong hives as moderate seems to be good and it means that I must raise queens as early as possible.  I have just learned from MAAREC sites that best hives swarm first  Tongue


ME:

Pardon my saying so, but you haven't been paying attention to what I have been saying, Finsky. I know the messages have been fast and furious, and some overly L O N G.

But to recapitulate, Langstroth pointed out that one can pull brood out of hive at regular intervals WITHOUT hurting the colony. It's just like giving blood (like I said). It won't be missed if it's done right.

Not only that, but pulling brood in spring inhibits the swarming impulse, and you can certainly raise queens then ... The bees are doing it! It's called artificial swarming by some; or making increase by others.

Like I said already, you can pull brood and make strong nucs (4-5 frames) and let them raise their own queen. Maybe not the best plan, but a good one. If the queens are no good, replace them later.
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2006, 11:12:04 AM »

Quote from: derbeemeister
Langstroth pointed out that one can pull brood out of hive at regular intervals WITHOUT hurting the colony. .


One interval is enough here.

At the end of May wintered bees have died and new have emerged. After that hive is going to enlarge. From this point after 2 weeks begings  blooming pause (10.6.) and it starts swarming season.  Blooming starts again 28.6. and continues one month.

It is very narrow time to do something: about 2-3 weeks. Then starts main flow.
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derbeemeister
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2006, 12:25:20 PM »

This topic was pretty well flogged on BEE-L five or six years ago. I got this stuff there:

Eva Crane wrote:

"Where colonies of both Africanized and European bees are present, it is very important to be able to distinguish between them. A simple and rapid method ... is to make three measurements across the parallel sides of 10 cells of natural worker comb; results (Rinderer, 1986) predict that an average of 49 mm [cell size 4.9 mm] or less indicates comb built by Africanized honey bees, and of 52 mm [cell size 5.2 mm] or more, by European bees. Identification is not possible if the distance is 50 to 51 but Africanization might be suspected."

Marla Spivak spent much time in Costa Rica observing the onset of Africanization. She measured the cell size of the European bees before, during and after the arrival. She refers to data collected by researchers as early as 1973 indicating European bees in the tropics built cells ranging from 5.0 to 5.4 mm. These bees, being kept in box hives for centuries, can hardly said to be affected by manufactured comb foundation.

Africanized bee cells were found to be in the range of 4.6 to 5.0 mm, throughout South America. (In Africa, scutellata ranges from 4.7 to 4.9.) According to Spivak, European bees in Costa Rica in 1984 built comb with cells measuring 5.3 mm. When African bees entered the area the numbers immediately fell to 5.0 mm. Later, the range for African bees was shown to be 4.7 to 5.1.

Spivak refers to one apiary that she studied in the mountains. There were 9 hives, which the owners filled with swarms. These hives were plain boxes filled with natural comb. The AVERAGE cell size in each and every hive was 5.3 mm. The first arriving hybrid African swarms built comb around 5.0 mm and subsequent swarms (less hybridized) ranged from 4.7 to 5.0. This phenomenon was observed throughout South and Central American and is fully documented in the book she edited.

She emphasizes that while cell size is a clear indication of Africanization, these bees do not necessarily exhibit the fierce behavior normally associated with this bee type. Even bees with cells as small as 4.7 mm were not always extremely defensive.

* * *

TABLE FROM
BEES AND BEEKEEPING
By Eva Crane, OBE, Dsc (former director of IBRA)
Published By Heinmann Newnes, 1990
ISBN 0 434 90271 3

All Dimensions in mm,
D/W is the ratio of Drone cell size to Worker cell size,
ESW is Excluder Slot Width

Species, Comb Spacing, Cell  Size, D/W, ESW


A. mellifera,

European        35a       5.1-5.5       1.3        4.13-4.5
USA                 ---          5.3b         1.23b        ---
A.m.cypria        ---           ---           ---           3.8
A.m.syriaca        ---         4.9           ---           ---
___________________________________________________
A. mellifera,
African

A.m.unicolor        ---        5.0            ---           ---
A.m scutellata      32       4.7-4.9        ---         4.4c
A.m. lamarkii       32            4.6         1.33         ---
unspecified
"tropical"              32        4.77-4.94    1.38        ---
in Zimbabwe        32            4.8           ---          ---
in Angola,
Tanzania             30-32        4.8           ---        4.35
A.m. capensis       31.8        4.86          ---         ---
A.m.litorea           28-30      4.62          1.3         ---
A.m. jemenitica       ---         4.75         1.31       ---
A.m.monticola         ---         5.0            ---        ---
Africanized              ---       4.5-5.0        ---        ---
__________________________________________________
A.cerana

Japan                      30        4.7-4.8       1.13       ---
Nepal                     30          ---            ---         3.5
India:
Kashmir                  35           4.9           1.08    4.0-4.2
d, India:
High Himalayas       30           4.9             ---       4.0
Sub Himalayas        31           4.7             ---      3.75
Central                   32           4.5             ---      3.50
South                     32           4.3              ---       ---
Bangladesh            27-31        ---             ---       ---
Burma                      31           ---            ---        ---
Java                         28            ---          1.17       ---
Philippines                30         3.6-4.0        ---      3.70
___________________________________________________
A. florea

Iran                          ---          2.9           1.59       ---
Java                          ---          ---           1.55       ---
Oman                       ---           ---           1.50      3.5


Notes
a, 32mm to 38mm is actually used.
b, in USA (Taber & Owens, 1970).
c, this is the gap in square mesh coffee wire, 0.58mm diameter wire on 5mm
pitch.
d, Indian Standards Institution (1976).
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2006, 01:31:11 PM »

This small cell seems to be endless debate. Just when it has finished it starts from it's very beginning.

Next generation of beekepers may analyse." In old good days real bees had bigger cell size than nowadays ..."  

Thanks for debating next generation have good series of numbers. Tens of researcher will spend their life  in wildernes and measure bees and combs.
 
2005:
"We collected bees at 54 sites in a 5,350-km2 study area in the Sonoran Desert of southwestern Arizona. We used mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis of individual worker honeybees (10 per site) to assess genetics of colonies within the study area. Among collected bees, 86.9% possessed African mtDNA. Western European, eastern European, and Egyptian (A. m. lamarckii) mtDNA was present in 5.6%, 4.1%, and 3.4% of collected bees, respectively. "

http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-abstract&issn=0038-4909&volume=050&issue=03&page=0307

2005:
"Scoring mitochondrial DNA type (mitotypes), we found representatives of A. mellifera scutellata, eastern European, western
European, and A. mellifera lamarckii races in pine forest landscapes of east Texas. "
http://kelab.tamu.edu/coulson/Pdf_pub/Coulson_05.pdf




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Jerrymac
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 06:44:51 PM »

Quote from: derbeemeister


She emphasizes that while cell size is a clear indication of Africanization, these bees do not necessarily exhibit the fierce behavior normally associated with this bee type. Even bees with cells as small as 4.7 mm were not always extremely defensive.



So what does this mean exactly? That all this hype about how bad and ugly Africanized bees are is just that..... A lot of hype??? So one could have the african blood line and have docile bees?

Also means all these bees I collected are african decent yet not agressive. SO!!! Why would anyone want to wipe them out?
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« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2006, 06:47:42 PM »

Quote from: Finsky

This small cell seems to be endless debate. Just when it has finished it starts from it's very beginning.

I know, Finsky. I started this forum to talk about something else, but they followed after us. Evidently they only read stuff from Bee Source. There are other sources. Example:

From:         Ahlert Schmidt
Subject:      Natural comb cell size
February 17, 2002, 6:25:35 AM

I would like to comment on bee cell size again. In Germany there has been beekeeping on natural combs for over five hundred years using skeps and there are still some apiaries using that technique. So there are bees that never have seen foundations for hundreds of generations. The cell size of combs constructed by these bees is still between 5.3 and 5.4 mm (805 cells per square decimeter) comming close to 5.37 mm which is the average of cell size for normal combs in Germany.

See for instance F. Gerstung: Der Bien und seine Zucht. 7. Auflage 1924; or: Zander and Weiss: Handbuch der Bienenkunde Volulme 4; Verlag Eugen Ulmer 1964 (first Edition 1921).
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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2006, 07:34:31 PM »

>And remember what happened to the native americans when the whites came. Most died of small pox.

Actually just as many died from Influenza and Measles and Rubella, Cholera, Typhoid and Diphtheria and all the other diseases that had killed millions of Europeans in the middle ages so that only those with the genetic ability to survive them were still alive.  Jenner may have come up with a Smallpox vaccine back in 1796, but most Europeans had reached the point genetically where they could survive it.  The American Indians had not.  There were no "scientific" solutions for the rest of these diseases, just inherited ability to survive them on the part of the Europeans and a total lack of that ability on the part of the American Indians.  It wasn’t a lack of science that killed them, but a lack of inherent resistance to those diseases.

>You still haven't shown any study where small cell hives were compared to large cell hives to see which survive better.

I know of no study that has done this.  I have done my own experiment.  I regressed all my hives and quite treating them.

> Even if the mites reproduce somewhat less in small cells, these colonies could still succumb to mite collapse.

But they did not.  I have many hives here with no treatment and they are not succumbing to mite collapse.  They are, in fact, inspected every spring by the Nebraska Department of Agriculture and the inspector has found not mites in them for the last two years.  Not that there aren’t mites by fall, but in the spring when he is inspecting he can’t find any.

>If you were seriously ill and you were offered the choice of a treatment that had been through extensive clinical trials with documented results -- or a new untested treatment, -- which would you want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on?

I’d go for the one I’m already using that is already working.

>Given such a choice, I wouldn't take a folk remedy even if it were free.

How foolish of you.  Almost every pharmaceutical on the market used to be a folk remedy.

>Is that being conservative, or skeptical? All I am asking for is proof in the scientific sense; it isn't my fault if you can't find any and bring it here.

I have no need to bring any here.  I’m perfectly happy keeping healthy bees without treatments and it’s not really my problem if you do not wish to do so.

>I am interested in management techniques that people can use on regular hives without special equipment; ones that eveyone can try.

You can use standard frames in standard boxes with just the simple substitution of a different size imprint on the foundation and you think that requires special equipment?  You can tweak the equipment a bit to get better results, but it’s certainly not necessary.

>She refers to data collected by researchers as early as 1973 indicating European bees in the tropics built cells ranging from 5.0 to 5.4 mm. These bees, being kept in box hives for centuries, can hardly said to be affected by manufactured comb foundation.

5.0mm is quite a bit smaller than 5.4mm.  The early beekeepers here in the US making similar measurements arrived at 50.8 and 5.25.  Quite a bit smaller than 5.4mm.

>I know, Finsky. I started this forum to talk about something else, but they followed after us.

If you don’t want to talk about regression, then maybe you shouldn’t make the topic the “REGRESSION FORUM” and then talk about regression.  

Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2006, 08:14:18 PM »

Quote
 derbeemeister   -    All I am asking for is proof in the scientific sense; it isn't my fault if you can't find any and bring it here.
 


Isn't the fact that MB is having success with these methods possibly make you curious to maybe even do your own experiment with one or two hives? If it did not work then you could alway go back to the way you are doing it now, sort of a reverse regression cheesy    I personally am curious why I never see any posts from people on any of these sites that say " I went to small cell and it did nothing the small cell people said it would do so I went back to the larger cell. "
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« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2006, 09:32:10 PM »

quote
isn't the fact that MB is having success with these methods possibly make you curious to maybe even do your own experiment with one or two hives? "

ME:
Look, it isn't my job to try out every new twist that comes up the pike. All I have been trying to do is present the opposing argument. Most beekeepers don't even bother, they don't think it's worth the effort to talk about this matter.

I have seen a lot of nutty beekeeping ideas in 30+ years , and some of them have a long shelf life.

Anyone heard of Aspinwall? He invented a follower board made of thin slats and placed these between every frame to PREVENT SWARMING. This was about a hundred years ago. It never caught on, but it reappeared in the seventies, made of plastic of course.

At Apimondia a guy was demonstrating a ROUND frame. The brood frames were all round, and they had an axle running through them hooked up to a motor so the frames could be constantly turning. It supposedly drove the varroa nuts.

Or the vinegar machine which blows hot acetic acid over the bees. I saw that used once and it cooked the bees. Probably killed the varroa too.

I am interested in promoting a different idea: the nucleus system combined with northern bred queens. I stand to make no money and gain no fame, since it isn't my idea at all.

Any time anyone wants to talk about that I am ready.
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2006, 09:44:56 PM »

>I am interested in promoting a different idea: the nucleus system combined with northern bred queens.

I've been saying we need Northern bred queens for many years.  I've also been trying to raise nucs in the North.  What do you see this accomplishing, besides bees well adapted to the North and no AHB from the South? (which are certainly worth the effort)
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« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2006, 10:55:58 AM »

Kirk Webster from Vermont, described the system in the ABJ in 1997. I am going back over the articles right now to pull out the salient points.  Kirk put two small young colonies, separated by a division board feeder, into one hive body. These "double nucs" were stacked upon regular colonies or upon each other during the winter to keep them warmer.

Two young colonies were created this way with only little extra equipment necessary. Hive insulation, or in this case mutual warming of colonies stacked close together, is good for small colonies like these. He says full sized colonies in two hive bodies rather benefit from cold wintering in non-insulated hives, except in very cold areas.

In the following spring, the young spare colonies must be checked for food stores. If enough pollen and nectar (or syrup) is present, they expand rapidly. Soon they should either be united with a regular colony with a failing queen or be transferred into a full size hive to replace a colony that has been lost during the winter.

I have talked to him since that article was written and he now prefers single colonies in 1 story hives to the divided ones. The colony should be on at least 8 frames going into winter, and plugged with honey. A hundred years ago most hives were wintered in 1 story.

PS

I don't own any bees. I sold out a years ago because of the falling price of honey and the rising cost of living where I was, among other things. Since then I have worked for somebody else and am required to follow instructions on bee management. The outfit uses miticides and replaces the many dead hives with package bees every year. As a wage worker, I just do what I am paid to do. However, I see Kirk's plan as a way out for Northern Beekeepers, and I plan to summarize it in the next couple of days.
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2006, 01:13:57 PM »

Since this is not really about regression at all, I have decided to start a new topic which I have named "Natural Beekeeping in the North"

You will find it under the heading of  GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM.

http://beemaster.com/beebbs/viewforum.php?f=2
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Herve Abeille
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