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Author Topic: JOBS and fundamental economic justice  (Read 2256 times)
hjon71
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 08:16:43 AM »

http://www.progress.org/classic-articles/where-tax-reform-has-worked/    

This should satisfy your curiosity 'if' really interested.  I don't think you're slow.  That would be presumptuous and mean spirited.  

Confused over how political economies function is more likely.

Thanks for the link.
This is a new concept for me. Sounds interesting.
I just downloaded a book to read.
I will start after my current read, A Heart Like His-Beth Moore. Recommend highly, good bible study. Easy to read/understand and entertaining.
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T Beek
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2014, 03:06:59 PM »

http://www.progress.org/classic-articles/where-tax-reform-has-worked/    

This should satisfy your curiosity 'if' really interested.  I don't think you're slow.  That would be presumptuous and mean spirited.  

Confused over how political economies function is more likely.

Thanks for the link.
This is a new concept for me. Sounds interesting.
I just downloaded a book to read.
I will start after my current read, A Heart Like His-Beth Moore. Recommend highly, good bible study. Easy to read/understand and entertaining.


Glad you found the information useful  Smiley
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hjon71
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 11:43:53 PM »

I just began Progress and Poverty by Henry George. Turns the whole apple cart over doesn't it? Only about 10% in but I like it so far. Update when I finish.
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T Beek
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2014, 05:17:11 AM »

After reading P & P many years ago (after college where I studied economics and psychology), the questions still nag at me; 

Why is this Great American Economist (still) ignored in our Universities?  Why are his rational economic solutions suppressed?  Why do some wrongly believe and proclaim he was a communist, particularly when the facts prove he was anything but?  When In fact, he toured around the Country condemning Marx's theories while promoting political economy and an end to poverty, becoming Mayor of NYC by beating Teddy Roosevelt while promoting his solutions to the worlds economic problems.

…….I fear the answers are more disturbing than the questions.  Todays world needs HG more than ever.

Happy Reading!  (My favorite chapters revolve around the "remedy")
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hjon71
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2014, 04:24:54 AM »

I'm certain anyone who cares knows WHY it is suppressed.  evil
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T Beek
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 06:00:25 AM »

Its hard to see the why's if we don't know or understand the what's….particularly when the what's are deliberately omitted or wrongly ridiculed upon discovery.
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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2014, 03:31:51 AM »

Only about 10%...

If you read and understood the first 10% you have a better foundation to understand economics than having a PhD in the mainstream economics.
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T Beek
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2014, 05:49:39 AM »

Only about 10%...

If you read and understood the first 10% you have a better foundation to understand economics than having a PhD in the mainstream economics.

 applause  Even with a degree in economics I only became enlightened in true 'natural' economic study upon later discovering HG.  Like I've said before;  We teach two forms of economics in the world.  One teaches the 'tricks' of the trade (think Wall-Street Bankers), the other teaches natural political economy designed to benefit all.  Minimally our universities should teach both forms, so graduates aren't shocked when they finally discover GEORGISM.  Smiley
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hjon71
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2014, 01:23:52 AM »

I'm into Justice of the Remedy and I've been wondering for awhile,  do you think Henry George could have imagined the impact of Central Banking, interest manipulation, and the current effect speculation plays where capital is concerned?

I get the point so far, I'm not sure it is a Remedy. Don't worry I will finish and maybe I haven't reached the whole answer yet.
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T Beek
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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2014, 06:30:55 AM »

Let me suggest that while reading P & P you also implement more recent adaptations (up-dated for modern times) exampled under geonomics as are presented on the Progress Report website.   Understanding the basics of economic science through HG is just the beginning, yet it is absolutely necessary in providing a base for further learning.

I believe HG knew the forces that were against his rational perspectives and 'sound' economic advise, knowing full well that his 'remedy' would take time to implement, generations perhaps.  He fought against those forces until the day he died.  I'm happy to be one of his soldiers.

Could he foresee the financial stranglehold we've had forced upon us since his death?………I'm not sure…..but he certainly knew what could occur without the 'monied interests' monopoly of the world and its resources.  That my friend is where we must begin the dismantling of our current corrupt system.  

Only with a growing recognition by 'the people' of the blatant unfairness of our current economic system, which allows 'some' citizens the exclusive rights to exploit and profit off the natural world, while denying the majority its due…….. can we ever hope to bring this 'demon system' down……it could be quite a while yet…..but it will happen, I'm fairly certain…..…..likely after all other options have been tried……... Wink
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hjon71
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2014, 02:38:56 PM »

OK. So final thoughts.
In an attempt to gain some perspective other than my own, I asked on Facebook whether anyone would willingly pay a single tax on land and remove all other taxes from the State of Tennessee.  I provided some estimations of what the single tax would look like based on a comparative study of current county property taxes(to allow for zoning or site variations).
 A resounding No. Why?
Overwhelmingly the response was "I want everyone to pay something " or "Why should I pay their way to a free ride".... After seeing through examples how all of them would be better off, personally, business-wise, economically and socially.
This is a rural area I'm talking about.
I don't get it.
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2014, 03:36:19 PM »

Perhaps the 'gains' (for everyone) were not clearly identified or explained.  

However, I suspect that a lifetime (generations) of indoctrination dictates that this type of thinking equals communism or is somehow anti-America, when factually, the opposite is true.  Nothing in our Constitution proclaims or promises that 'capitalism' is the only way for America Smiley……...The battle between LABOR and the LAND Monopolizers is a long one, and even HG knew it wouldn't bear much fruit in his lifetime.  Most causes such as this, (righting injustice (s)) take time, many simply giving up, believing they are fighting a lost causes with little or no hope for change.  To feel helpless as a citizen is part of the plan, make no mistake….  

Some (Free Thinkers) believe that the lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for.  Wink

Final thoughts…..?….Really?
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hjon71
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2014, 05:08:33 PM »

Final thoughts - pretty much.
I think HG is correct.
On the state level this idea is completely doable now. If people only knew about it....
I hope to convince others.
Of course I will have to read more and have already found some useful references.
Recommendatiins?

I believe if we could enact this tax method and reform monetary policy, the possibilities would only be limited by imagination. And Yes, I am a dreamer.
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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 04:28:49 PM »

Quote
I believe if we could enact this tax method and reform monetary policy, the possibilities would only be limited by imagination. And Yes, I am a dreamer.

??

you would have a minority paying for everything with the majority making decisions.  can we take away the vote from the minority?

seems to me that a more fair way of addressing tax policy is consumption tax.  everyone consumes.  i realize this doesn't have the punitive appeal of punishing the bad people who have taken the land, but it makes more sense?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2014, 05:56:31 PM »

??

you would have a minority paying for everything with the majority making decisions.  can we take away the vote from the minority?...

That was my first thought as well - mob rule. Ben Franklin's two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

I don't have any specifics for this conversation, but in general I think our tax system both rewards and punishes the wrong things. People respond to incentives. If you want more of something, subsidize it. If you want less of something, tax it. It really is that simple. What does our government subsidize? Debt, consumption, unemployment, pregnancy. What does it tax? Ownership and productivity.

One personal example is that my wife quit her job because it put us in a tax bracket that meant she was almost working for free. So the system incentivized a productive citizen to drop out of the work force. Another is that when I remodeled my my house I only built one legal bedroom, because my property taxes for even a one-bedroom house on 4/10th of an acre are $14,000. The tax system incentivized me to game the system by only putting closets in one room, and using wardrobes in the others.

Think about what would happen if you incentivized your kids the way our tax system incentivizes us: If your daughter gets a job, you take money away from her. If she fixes up her room, reassess it and take more money away from her. If she quits her job, give her money. If she comes home pregnant, give her more. Inflate the currency so that saving becomes difficult for her, and long-term debt becomes attractive. If she goes broke because of poor decisions, bail her out.
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hjon71
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2014, 06:21:22 PM »

Quote
I believe if we could enact this tax method and reform monetary policy, the possibilities would only be limited by imagination. And Yes, I am a dreamer.

??

you would have a minority paying for everything with the majority making decisions.  can we take away the vote from the minority?

seems to me that a more fair way of addressing tax policy is consumption tax.  everyone consumes.  i realize this doesn't have the punitive appeal of punishing the bad people who have taken the land, but it makes more sense?

Kathy claims a consumption tax is fair. And it would be if everybody consuming is earning a wage. But that isn't the case.
Ex. from the book.
2 men make exactly the same amount of money. They are Equal
Guy1 is single
Guy2 is married with 2 children.
While they make the same the tax liability is far different or not Equal.
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2014, 06:59:14 PM »

no tax is going to be completely fair, but if you advocate the land tax, then fairness is not your goal.  at least a consumption tax gives you some control over what you pay by your lifestyle choices.

the closest i can come to fair is a flat tax on ALL income sources.  welfare, SSI, you name it.  if it comes in and you cash it, you get taxed on it. 

the other thing that would be "fair" would be to not allow those who do not pay taxes, to vote.  if you have no skin in the game, you should have no say in the game.

there was a time when no vote unless you were a land owner was the popular idea.  looking back, they were probably on to something.  so...have your land tax and let the people who pay the tax, make the decisions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2014, 07:11:44 PM »


2 men make exactly the same amount of money. They are Equal
Guy1 is single
Guy2 is married with 2 children.
While they make the same the tax liability is far different or not Equal.

Good point. If Guy 1 forced Guy 2 to get married and have children, then Guy 1 should subsidize Guy 2.
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Vance G
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2014, 08:44:03 PM »

My favorite Lefty PITA is the statement by some featherhead on my PBS dollar is that
 "The opposite of poverty is justice."
My large hairy fundament!
Fairness is everyone having skin in the game.  If everyone and every corporation paid a small consumption tax on everything, it would bring in vast sums of money which would immediately be spent by the government. 

We are probably past the tipping point.  I see nothing sane coming out of the richest city in the world, Washington.  I don't know if we will revolt before or after we reach full third world status.   
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« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2014, 08:58:56 PM »

""2 men make exactly the same amount of money. They are Equal
Guy1 is single
Guy2 is married with 2 children.
While they make the same the tax liability is far different or not Equal.""

NO, guy 2 has the advantage. His family enjoys the same roads, police, fire dept., etc. that guy 1 enjoys. Why should he not have to pay for them? He took on the responsibility.

Want to lower taxes, never give foreign aid. Only loan it with movable, valuable collateral. The excess tax monies would pile up quickly.
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