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Author Topic: JOBS and fundamental economic justice  (Read 2521 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2014, 09:32:20 PM »

while i am in favor of cutting foreign aid, that's like 1% of the budget.  the greatest part of the budget is mandated spending on "entitlements".  until those are under control, there's not much of a way to fix this. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hjon71
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« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2014, 09:37:15 PM »

The point of Progress and Poverty, as I understand it is this:

All wealth comes from land.
So a single tax on the Source of all wealth is not only the simplest but fairest.

By removing the burdensome tax on all other sources, you create an environment rich for growth and investment. The pluses are so far ahead of the 1 common complaint.
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hjon71
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« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2014, 10:22:52 PM »

Here is a good reference
http://www.progress.org/property-tax-shift/
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kathyp
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« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2014, 10:38:32 PM »

Quote
All wealth comes from land.
So a single tax on the Source of all wealth is not only the simplest but fairest.

think that through.  you are not taxing land.  you are taxing people.  you are selectively taxing a relatively small segment of the population because they have taken something that george believes belongs to all, and made the rest of the population surfs.  even in his own time that argument didn't work.  it works less now.  until the land vomits currency, you are punishing only land owner/users...and i say that under the belief that all taxes are punishment to some extent.  also remember that the biggest owner of land in many states IS the government.  that problem needs to be addressed as well.

Quote
By removing the burdensome tax on all other sources, you create an environment rich for growth and investment. The pluses are so far ahead of the 1 common complaint.

removing taxes does create growth and investment.  there are still essential services that we have decided we want, so we must pay for them.  assuming that your main goal is fairness, a land tax only, is very unfair if all are using essential services.  it's also very unfair if you are going to provide social services.  those people sucking up the welfare will not be the land owners, but they will vote.  the more takers there are voting, the more they will vote for themselves.  our current system suffers from the same problem in that there are more takers than makers.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 06:06:41 AM »

Supposedly we Americans despise monopolies, yet the biggest monopoly we have is the monopoly of LAND (and its resources).

kathyp; you and this discussion would benefit greatly by 'reading' Progress and Poverty by Henry George (not the first time its been recommended).  Why resist something that would only result with future discussions with substance instead of confusion?  Its FREE on line…….  henrygeorgeinstitute.com

I promise; Doing so will make these misguided assumptions on the subject of economics seem less silly.  Your comments show a distorted and confused methodology as to how a LVT system would work and does work.  There's no excuse these days for anyone to be claiming the same old misunderstood falsehoods, exploited, exposed and replaced with the facts long ago….even right here on BM  Wink.

Reminder;  "we" are the government.  LAND held for the common good (our commons) 'should' be controlled by the government to prohibit 'one' class from all the profits without paying RENT to society.  Its one of the few responsibilities a government should have.  One 'we' (our government/US/WE THE PEOPLE) is failing miserably at as the generations pass by.

Quote from kathyp;  "removing taxes does create growth and investment."  

Exactly!!!  applause………….AND by eliminating taxes on LABOR and PRODUCTION (regressive taxation) and replacing with some form of LVT (a progressive tax) we can finally create our own JOBS, WEALTH, flowing CAPITAL, spur PRODUCTION and provide ECONOMIC JUSTICE for everyone.  There's a good reason why the Single Tax is also known as the 'simple' tax.

Seems this discussion has come full circle….. Smiley
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 07:34:06 AM by T Beek » Logged

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jayj200
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 08:02:53 AM »

SO LETS FIRE THE JERK
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T Beek
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2014, 08:13:48 AM »

SO LETS FIRE THE JERK

Where to begin?
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kathyp
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »

Quote
Reminder;  "we" are the government.  LAND held for the common good (our commons) 'should' be controlled by the government to prohibit 'one' class from all the profits without paying RENT to society.  Its one of the few responsibilities a government should have.

my memory is not what it used to be, but i am pretty sure this has been done.  in fact, i believe it is one of the main tenets of communism.  i can't remember a single time that it's worked out well for anyone.

to be clear, i am not in favor of taxing labor.  i think it's a disincentive to work.  However, the current tax system favors the lazy and needs to be changed.  the best ways to not favor the lazy are to either have a consumption tax...and i'm not talking about VAT, or to tax equally (%) all income no matter source.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2014, 05:42:22 AM »

kathyp; This is precisely why I urge you to "READ" and conduct some of your own research.  Your words example a lack of insight into the world of economics, the LVT, a Single Tax and/or Henry George in particular (and even communism apparently  rolleyes).  Until one understands some basic economic LAWS this discussion can only be 'lop' sided.

Do we not, as American citizens have ownership in vast tracts of public spaces (LAND)?   Do you 'really' equate that public ownership with communism?

Over the past two months or more I've provided several posts outlying some VERY basic ways to understand this stuff.  One can only assume  Undecided the information was ignored and remains ignored by some still.  So it goes……No one can say I haven't tried….  

However, I realize that anyone trying to pass important information on isn't always met with joy or acceptance…..NOT MY FAULT Wink when people select their own styles of intellect (open or closed?), no matter how silly or confused it may be.

I've explained this TO YOU before; Communism could not be further away from Geonomics.  Geonomics embraces (most) capitalist theories while exposing the flaws in both systems.  Henry George spent a good portion of his adult life exposing those flaws while clearly presenting required corrections in both systems in order to seek and find ECONOMIC JUSTICE for ALL.

kathyp;  what are you so afraid of?   Nothing wrong with an 'evolving' viewpoint, especially in light of 'new' information.   Smiley
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 05:56:20 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2014, 11:01:16 AM »

Quote
One can only assume  Undecided the information was ignored and remains ignored by some still.

no, there are other things one can assume.

Quote
I've explained this TO YOU before; Communism could not be further away from Geonomics.

this may or may not be true, but has nothing to do with my post.  i was referring only to that part where government would control all the land.  

as for the citizens already owning great tracts of land by way of the govenrment....ever try to run your 4 wheeler through a "wilderness" area?  we need not live under a communist government to see how government control of land is a bad idea.

but again....when has government control of land worked in the favor of the people?  and communism is an excellent example.

try to read for content, and not what you think you know about what i am saying.  just because you have a point of view with which others disagree, does not mean that they don't get it.  it means they disagree.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 03:18:20 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2014, 11:53:00 AM »

So you assume if someone is still in disagreement with you it's because they don't read what you post?
 Sounds like when the Dems say people are being partisan because they won't tow their agenda.
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T Beek
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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2014, 01:15:33 PM »

So you assume if someone is still in disagreement with you it's because they don't read what you post?
 Sounds like when the Dems say people are being partisan because they won't tow their agenda.

That's not even close to where I'm coming from……..talk about assumptions  Wink………...

To any and all interested parties; MIT offers FREE ON LINE COURSES in many of their subjects including ECONOMICS (minus any Henry George of course  Wink which will please some.  My recommendation to anyone entering a debate or discussion, is to at least have a basic understanding of the subject 'before'……..showing an obvious lack of understanding of that subject.  Doesn't that make some sense?  Perhaps we could/should debate or discuss 'that' concept for awhile  Smiley

I don't mind disagreements or debate at all, in fact I find them stimulating when opposing opinions are intelligently offered and name calling is held to a minimum.   But when an 'honest'  debate is faced/challenged with mythologies instead of facts and reality, then what?  

When any subject is as clearly misunderstood as this one (POLITICAL ECONOMY), choosing to debate and/or ridicule can come across as both futile and discouraging at best………….TBH….it rips out my heart to have some of these conversations turn ugly so quickly and almost always due to……some misunderstanding………….a common thread………...(can't wait for SPRING  Smiley).

.……well, keeping that in mind;  'Who's' responsibility is it to find out and/or expose the truths, the lies, the facts and the fiction?  It must either be those who 'might' have some knowledge of a given subject or - should we all just 'cave' to those who have little idea what is going on or is minimally confused- without challenging?  Really?  OR- should we all say nothing at all…..you all know who's secret desires that 'satisfies', right?  Wink

Just asking and just wondering  Undecided    What I'm saying is this;  "If you want to debate or discuss a subject with me…you'd better know the material."  That's the least anyone should expect IMO.

Again I'm finding myself apologizing 'ahead of time' for any presumed and/or perceived offenses toward folks that plainly don't know my true intentions…. Cry  

**LOVE**



"Cuz I'm just a soul who's intentions are good, oh Lord please don't let me be misunderstood"    -The Animals (cir 1964)
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T Beek
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2014, 01:37:46 PM »

REMINDER;  WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT-Pointing fingers and complaining about it won't ever change it.  NEVER!

IMO; Governments sole responsibility is to protect society from the con-men and women who are currently in control of the World Economy (LAND and pretty much everything else)). 

Ask; why has our government failed so miserably at this very basic function?  Why weren't we the people protected from the 'wolves' (and sharks, and bottom feeders) of Wall Street?  Seems obvious they were protected though, doesn't it?…………...HINT;……'we the people' failed to live up to 'our' responsibilities as so-called FREE citizens…….. shocked
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Edgy
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« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2014, 08:54:57 AM »

Supposedly we Americans despise monopolies, yet the biggest monopoly we have is the monopoly of LAND (and its resources).

kathyp; you and this discussion would benefit greatly by 'reading' Progress and Poverty by Henry George (not the first time its been recommended).  Why resist something that would only result with future discussions with substance instead of confusion?  Its FREE on line…….  henrygeorgeinstitute.com

I promise; Doing so will make these misguided assumptions on the subject of economics seem less silly.  Your comments show a distorted and confused methodology as to how a LVT system would work and does work.  There's no excuse these days for anyone to be claiming the same old misunderstood falsehoods, exploited, exposed and replaced with the facts long ago….even right here on BM  Wink.

Reminder;  "we" are the government.  LAND held for the common good (our commons) 'should' be controlled by the government to prohibit 'one' class from all the profits without paying RENT to society.  Its one of the few responsibilities a government should have.  
I just wish "we" the government wouldn't let our forests here in MT. be destroyed by wildfire and beetles.
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T Beek
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« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2014, 10:04:02 AM »

Fire, as destructive as it can be to life in general, is natures way of replenishing itself (much like when a fire is set under enough people so it can replenish a society Wink).  

Setting fires as fire prevention, particularly in prairie regions was once considered standard practice (for thousands of years).  Not so much anymore.  Scattered, yet 'restricted' populations in cities and towns developed with little forethought has limited that form of remedy in most places…..so we suffer from wildfires….frequently.  

And of course that should never negate the traumas suffered by the survivors…..of any act of Nature.  Perhaps, if people were allowed equal access to the vast tracts of LAND (and resources) 'controlled' by a few wealthy families the destruction caused by 'wild-fires' could be limited………by the communities that are then allowed to develop…..You know….We The People... Smiley

(otherwise….I've seen evidence where goats do a tremendous job ridding drought stricken areas of underbrush as a fire prevention….but then people will and do complain about the goats  Undecided ).  

Just wondering…….thanks for offering another perspective to ponder…  (umm, wildfires 'unhampered' just might get rid of those beetles)
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