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Author Topic: Pollen substitute patties...  (Read 7494 times)
beebiz
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« on: February 06, 2006, 09:12:33 PM »

Hey all,

I haven't been around here in a while.  My computer's HD crashed and it took me a while to get it fixed.  And as it is with so many computer users, I had virtually NOTHING backed up on CD's or anything else.  I lost the address for Beemaster, and just found it when I was sent an email about the 1000 members strong.  Way to go!!!  I'm glad I found Beemaster again!

I have one colony of bees that I wanted to feed a pollen substitute to.  However, I have no pollen and right now finances dictate that I cannot buy any pollen or the substitutes that are available.  Back before my HD crashed, I found a site where the owner said that he had come up with a recipe for a pollen substitute patty that seemed to be palletable to the bees.  Before giving the recipe he joked about how he was going to charge a certain price for the "secret" recipe.  But in the end, he charged nothing for it.

I had the site and the page bookmarked in my favorites, but as I said, all of that information was lost when the HD crashed.  I don't remember anything about the recipe except that it contained no pollen and that everything in it was available from the grocery store.  Can anyone out there help me with finding this site?  If not, can anyone help me with a recipe that I can use that would contain things that are redily available from the groecry store?  I hate to do it this way, but I can only do what my $$$ allows me to do.

Thanks in advance for any help that you may be able to give.

Robert

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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2006, 09:32:30 PM »

Sounds like one I found awhile ago too. The one I found was for soy flour or brewer's yeast mixed with a little vitamin C.
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2006, 09:44:52 PM »

That would probably be Dennis Murells' site.  B-wrangler.  I think he mixes it up and adds a little vitamin C, but I could be wrong.

http://bwrangler.atspace.com/
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Apis629
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2006, 10:08:09 PM »

He did say he added vitamin C but, I thought he added it to pollen suplements and not substitutes.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2006, 11:04:49 PM »

You can find pollen at health food stores. Back when I was truckin' cross country I saw it sold in capsule form at truck stops.
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beebiz
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2006, 12:56:08 AM »

Thanks guys.  You are right.... bwrangler is the site that I was thinking of.  And it is the vitamin C added to pollen supplements and not substitutes.  Once again, my memory has done a lousy job!!

I've found a couple of recipes that call for soy flour and brewer's yeast.  I have two questions about these ingredients.  First, where do you find them?  I checked with my Wal-Mart super center and they say they don't even know what I'm talking about!  Next, what is the difference (if any) between brewer's yeast and baking yeast?

One last thing.  Do any of you know of a recipe that I can use for a pollen supplement that is made up of things that are redily available at the grocery store?  Seems like I read somewhere that there is a patty that can be made with peanut butter!?!?  I may have, or it may just be my memory playing tricks on me again!!

Thanks again for all your help.

Robert
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2006, 01:16:04 AM »

It should be 20% pollen in the patty and 80% other protein stuff.

 make dough with dough machine.

2 kg dry pollen  - RADIATED
0,7 litre water to soften pollen over night
3 kg yeast  or 0,6 kg dry yeast
2 kg soya flour
1 kg fructose  
1 kg flour sugar
___________________
10 kg total

This volume is for 20 hives for one week. If patty makes bubbles (ferment),  add sugar.

Fructose keeps patty soft. You may use your own honey but it may include  AFB spores.

If you have soya flour without fat, it is good to ad soy oil. Then it is more palatable. In crogery soya flour has often 20% fat. Look text.
Fat content of bee food cannot be over 7%.

If dough is too wet, add soya flour and balance the mixture with it.

Then I roll the paste between two dough paper to 5-8 mm plate and give it to the top bars of frame. During one week 2 super colony can eat 0,5-1 kg that dough. New born bees eat it very eargerly.

Near 20% pollen all colonies are not willing to eat dough.

Dough will be in condition at least 3 weeks in cold. The flour sugar add the content of sugar and stops yeast fermentation.
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Andrew Tyzack
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2006, 02:25:34 AM »

Hi Finsky,

Can you keep the dough in the fridge or freezer even?

Andrew
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downunder
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2006, 05:14:08 AM »

1 part torula yeast or brewers yeast (health food or baking wholesaler)
1 part full fat Soy flour (health food or baking wholesaler)
2 parts irradiated pollen if you are rich Cheesy or work at a university!
1 or 2 (if fussy bees) parts sugar dissolved in hot water (supermarket and tap respectively Cheesy )

Mix together to form a dough like paste. Place patties in between two sheets of grease proof paper and give to hive.

Caution:- If you have small hive beetle do not leave in a hive longer than a week. Otherwise you will have a fermented larva patty! cry

They can be frozen for a short time but it's much better to use fresh.

Fish meal is also another protein supplement although it's a bit on the nose.
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2006, 05:16:34 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Tyzack
Hi Finsky,

Can you keep the dough in the fridge or freezer even?


Good question! I keep in fridge but the main point is that it will be very hard there.

It is better pack in smaller plastic cartons. Before you roll out the stuff between greaseproof paper  it should warmed in micro wave oven, but not too hot because heat  destroys vitamins.  As hand warm it is easy to handle. If it is in one block it is difficult handle.

I take empty cartons with cover from candy shop (video kiosk). Odor of stuff is not pleasant.
2 pictures:





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Robo
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2006, 10:26:40 AM »

Finsky,

Do you have a lot of black flies around your hives (I see them on both pictures and a yellow jacket too)?  Last year was the first year I really notices a lot of black flies around my hives.  I didn't see where they were bothering anything.  But boy they sure were annoying when I was working on the hives.  They buzz around and like landing on your bare skin (I assume for sweat) and your mind immediately thinks its a bee rolleyes
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2006, 02:01:40 PM »

Quote from: Robo
Finsky,

Do you have a lot of black flies around your hives :


Yes, I noticed. These pictures have taken in August, late summer.
Patty has such an odor that it gathers soon pretty much flies.
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Andrew Tyzack
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2006, 04:34:47 PM »

I had a brain wave -and yes there is pollen for sale on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BEES-POLLEN-Dried-112g-4ozs-Great-Value_W0QQitemZ5663194625QQcategoryZ19262QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

...don't know if it's any good for patties though???

Andrew
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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2006, 11:18:39 PM »

Pollen for bees must be radiated. Otherwise it may contain American foulbrood spores.
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2006, 11:53:38 PM »

Just a thought on the soy bean powder.  That can be obtained from a feed mill as it is used in animal feeds.  Get the extruded variety.  Some mills sell it by the pound and/or by the 50 pound bag.  It is the principle source of non-animal protein in animal feed.
The feed mills also have bulk brewers yeast but it is courser than that found in the health food store (very small flakes vs powder). Not sure if it is too big but have thought about trying it as it is dirt cheap and besides I mix it into some of my animal feed to add some nutrition.
Steve
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 02:56:58 AM »

Quote from: steveb
Not sure if it is too big but have thought about trying it as it is dirt cheap and besides


Last spring I tried "normal" animal soya flour. I seemed to me proper but when it swolled bees cannot  bite it. Half of flour dropped to bottom board.

Then I changed it to soya flour which is ment to use as "MILK SUBSTITUTE" for animal babies.  When you by from soya flour from small use it is not much in grocery.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2006, 04:33:08 AM »

I don't understand the use of two sheets of greeseproof paper?
How do the bees get at the pattie? Do they remove the paper themselves?

I guess the paper stops the stuff sticking to everything.

Andrew
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Finsky
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2006, 04:48:48 AM »

As you see from pic  (above) bees chew broken the paper and they make holes to it. Most of paper drops to the bottom and they must be cleaned once a month.

Paper hints patty to drop down because it is soft. And when you put inner cover on, bees between cover and patty do not soak into patty. And it is easy to roll between paper.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2006, 06:46:49 AM »

You can buy expeller processed or whole soya flour (two names for the same thing) at the health food stores here in the states.  It nees to be very finely ground (hence the flour) and it needs to still have the fat in it (hence the "expeller processed" or "whole").  It's usually in the refrigerated section of the health food store and you should keep it in the freezer until you use it.
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Finsky
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2006, 08:28:45 AM »

 For anvance.....

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf

FAT BEES
SKINNY BEES
-a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers-

Australia
© 2005 Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation.
All rights reserved.
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beebiz
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2006, 03:26:55 PM »

Hey All,

Thanks so much for all of the informaiton.  I tried finding soy flour and brewers yeast at my Wal-Mart super center and all of the local grocery stores, but found none.  This morning a lady from one of the grocery stores called me and said that she had some good news for me.  She said that she was able to locate the soy flour, and now had it on the shelf.  It's $2.49 for a one pound bag.  I don't guess that will be too bad since I only have one hive to feed.  She also said that she was almost positive that she could get the brewers yeast for me too.

Steveb, thanks for the feedmill idea.  I hadn't thought about checking with them, but will certainly do so.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Robert
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2007, 10:36:28 AM »

rejuvinating this topic since spring is coming, well it's here but it looks like we're gonna have a little winter inbetween, anyways i just want to get my info correct and get the stuff i might need.
have quite a few questions... beeks around here like to feed bees in spring, to help 'em develope faster, but most of them feed them with syrup, and i've seen many of you opose to this. well some don't feed them syrup but stuff that is called flat cake, ingredients are only sugar and yeast, (10kg sugar+ pound of yeast) some add honey. now, my guess is that this flat cake is somewhat same as syrup, only that they can eat it without moving it to comb. now, this pollen patties are completely different thing right?, they are ment strictly for raising brood, right? i was a bit confused coz someone wrote that young bees eat it eagerly.
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Finsky
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2007, 10:45:08 AM »

rejuvinating this topic since spring is coming, well it's here but it looks like we're gonna have a little winter inbetween, anyways i just want to get my info correct and get the stuff i might need.
have quite a few questions... beeks around here like to feed bees in spring, to help 'em develope faster, but most of them feed them with syrup, and i've seen many of you opose to this. well some don't feed them syrup but stuff that is called flat cake, ingredients are only sugar and yeast, (10kg sugar+ pound of yeast) some add honey. now, my guess is that this flat cake is somewhat same as syrup, only that they can eat it without moving it to comb. now, this pollen patties are completely different thing right?, they are ment strictly for raising brood, right? i was a bit confused coz someone wrote that young bees eat it eagerly.



90% of beekeepers do not know what they are talking about.  One reason is that they are old guys which learn slowly. Those bee nutritiens researches are 50 years old and they have done carefully.

Here is basics. This is not opinion issue.
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm

 



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Mici
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2007, 11:16:38 AM »

well finsky i know that beeks around here are quite old fashion, but doesn't feeding them syrup also help 'em develope, since they don't have to worry about gathering honey?

and again, this pollen patties are strictly for brood? would it be good to add some of those vitamin powders into the pattie. and, is it necessary i put it in dough paper, or can i put it into the feeder?
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2007, 11:24:08 AM »

Quote
1 part torula yeast or brewers yeast (health food or baking wholesaler)
1 part full fat Soy flour (health food or baking wholesaler)
2 parts irradiated pollen if you are rich  or work at a university!
1 or 2 (if fussy bees) parts sugar dissolved in hot water (supermarket and tap respectively


if you don't have the pollen, you just skip that part?  i had planned on pricing the buckets of pollen substitute and mixing my own that way, but if this is cheaper/easier, i'll check this out.
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2007, 11:33:10 AM »

it would be good if i added a teaspoon of salt huh? to prevent, what it's called here "may disease".
oh finsky, what exactly is this "radiation"? it isn't exposing to high temperature is it? can it be done at home? microwave:P?Cheesy
please, tell again when to insert it, i think you mentioned when the snow is gone, otherwise when? what temperatures, calendar? what plants bloosom at you at the time you insert it?
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Finsky
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2007, 11:52:23 AM »

Quote
1 part torula yeast or brewers yeast (health food or baking wholesaler)
1 part full fat Soy flour (health food or baking wholesaler)
2 parts irradiated pollen if you are rich  or work at a university!
1 or 2 (if fussy bees) parts sugar dissolved in hot water (supermarket and tap respectively



Your patty must have 50% sugar. Otherwise it starts to ferment. 1-2 parts is not enough, or even 3 parts.
all stuff together + water =  same measure sugar =50%
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Finsky
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2007, 11:58:24 AM »

it would be good if i added a teaspoon of salt huh?

No salt. No formula say that.


 
Quote
what exactly is this "radiation"?

Irradiation is gamma (short period radioactive) radiation. It kills all.  Perhaps in Hungary they have such factory and sell pollen.

Quote
what plants bloosom at you at the time you insert it?

HuhHuh?

I start pollen feeding so that when new bees emerge, they get fresh willow pollen. It means 3 weeks before willow sart to bloom at the beginning of May.

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Mici
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2007, 12:13:40 PM »

well, the salt is my idea, others add salt for bees to water so...it should be ok.

radiation..hummm UV lights emmit alfa don't they? should have the same effect.

i asked about blossoming so i could compare the situation, to know when i should insert it. i've read on our forum, between 10.1 and 15.2 so...i should do it ASAP, if the weather's gonna be willing.
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2007, 12:35:12 AM »

Mici

My following replies may seem harsh, but they are not meant to be. I'm here to help you learn and to help you from making regrettable mistakes. Please remember these forums are an educational resource that many other people base actions that directly impact the livelihood of their hives. When you tell the group you assume this or that is OK, you're giving them a green light to go and try it.  Please try to refrain from making blind assumptions unless you have some supportive evidence (a book or your own testing) before posting an assumptive OK.

[... the salt is my idea...] [...it should be ok.]

Yeah but not natures, where do bees normally get salt during the winter, or even the spring?
If its not in nectar, and its not in pollen, I would not add it because you are likely to cause a dietry inbalance that is likely to cause illness or disease. Remember bees don't fly in colder temps, and if they don't fly they don't cleanse, if they don't cleanse, it sits in their gut and breeds, ferments, or whatever the unnecessary product does.  At the very least, excessive waste fills the gut and makes it less useful for normal waste by-products, thus causing an unhealthy circumstance. This is why you never add anything more to the receipes than you are absolutely sure the bees need and the gut will absorb.

[radiation..hummm UV lights emmit alfa don't they? should have the same effect.]

UV doesn't penatrate deep, gamma does.
Gamma has a realitively short half life so it doesn't damage as much of the nutrition in the product.
A microwave does not work on the same principles so it is not a good alternative.

[...about blossoming.. ...when i should insert it.]

If plants are in bloom they have pollen.  If there is a natural pollen source bees are substanually less likely to take up an artifical replacement, or possibly a suppliment, in place of fresh pollen.

[beeks...like to feed...in spring, ...but most of them feed them with syrup, and i've seen many of you opose to this.]

BKs are opposed to feedling light syrups in the fall as it causes excessive moisture in the hive, moisture that doesn't have the summer heat to evaporate and so it condensates in the hive wetting the bees and eventually freezing them.  Most agree that feeding light 1:1 syrups are good for simulating the start of a spring flow, especially if it provided as a very slow flow (less holes in the feed jars).

[...don't feed them syrup but stuff that is called flat cake...]

In the US we make candy boards, sugar with as little water (moisture) as possible. This serves two purposes, first its food, second it gives the bees something to combine hive condensation with and have food as a by-product.

One point you must understand is nectar flows and that condition of that nectar.  By condition I mean its thickness (ie 1:1 or 1:2 water to sugar ratios). If you feed the wrong ratios at the wrong time of the year, it is very possible to kill your bees.  Remember you are simulating a flow and survival of the hive depends on the bees accurately reacting to the flow (real or poorly simulated). 

I hope this has really expanded your understanding and I hope it serves as a strong building block for your future research and application.

-Jeff
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2007, 07:02:23 AM »


I thought same thing as Jeff. In internet you may find reliable information what to do. There is no reason to invent own ideas to be shoot down. It takes too much time to shoot down false information here.

There are so many from dad to boy inherited knowledge which have nothing to do with reality. That is why I have renewed my information and I try to share it to those who want it.
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2007, 10:28:46 AM »

jeff, on the contrary, thank you very much for the reply!

about the salt...everyone says, that if you have a water source for the bees, add some salt in it in the spring, to prevent "may disease", like i said before, now, the water is mostly used for the brood right? so it should have the same effect if i gave it directly into the pollen pattie. about the may sickness, i don't know exactly what it is, but from description it's close to nosema.

i know, alfa particles don't penetrate much, but hey, you take what you got, an UV light isn't hard to acuire about the beta or gamma particle source..hummm, well i just thought that if i grinded it prior, and mixed it while radiating it... please, if you have a better solution, help me, i would be more than happy. i just think that putting it into the oven would be...a very bad idea. what about the microwave? i guess it would destroy the vitamins aswell.





oh jeff, please, tell me your opinion on these patties? better than syrup? candy board even better? pros and cons?

again, thank you for the reply.



edit: just came up with this idea...X-ray machine, this should do the trick, it emmits gamma-rays
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 12:41:29 PM by Mici » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2007, 10:49:46 AM »

"whole" soya flour is an item which i can't obtain, what to do?  i guess putting some butter in would be REALLY STUPID, or not? let's see what you guys have to say.
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2007, 11:59:34 AM »

"whole" soya flour is an item which i can't obtain, what to do?  i guess putting some butter in would be REALLY STUPID, or not? let's see what you guys have to say.

Mici, it is better to you to read those material in internet. It is impossible to answer your questions. Nutrition is very well documented in internet but it needs basic knowledge from general animal nutrition.
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« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2007, 03:34:59 PM »

ok..just before i do something really stupid, and since i sence an unheard trick. why in the world doesn't the yeast start "working"? what's the trick. i mean..this has bothered me since the first day i heard patties/flat cakes are made of sugar, yeast and water... how in the world. huh
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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2007, 04:35:49 PM »

the patties are "dry" enough the osmotic stress is prohibitive.  Yeast does eat sugar, but if the concentration is too high, it cannot ferment because osmotic stress pulls the water from the yeast; yeast die or go dormant, but either way do not ferment
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2007, 05:24:10 PM »

, but either way do not ferment


awwww, if you did then just cook it off between 172 and 186 degrees Wink ....... like being at grandmaws house  tongue evil
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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NWIN Beekeeper
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2007, 10:10:14 AM »

[tell me your opinion on these... ]
[patties? ]

Depends on the hive, I have some that won't take up moist patties, but loved dried mix.
Made improperly, patties can be a bigger source of disease than be an aid.

[...better than syrup? ]

Different nutrition, so I can't compare.
One is sugars, the other proteins.

[...candy board even better?]

Depends on the time of the year.
For mid winter when you want hive moisture to be a minimum, the board is best.
Jars with too thick a syrup will solidify (yuck!)
Boards can be a hassle to make and fill.
I like sugar rings (tall inner covers if you will).
They are easy to fill, very dry, and the bees will dilute as necessary.
For late winter, early spring you want to start with thin syrups, feeders are the way to go.

So the long answer is, it depends on the season and what you are trying to do.

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Finsky
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2007, 10:17:42 AM »

For mid winter when you want hive moisture to be a minimum, the board is best.

No need to give anything. Let bees keep their winter rest.
 
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Cindi
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2007, 12:37:23 AM »

In an e-mail today, our B.C. Provincial Apiculturist told me that it is good to feed a pollen patty now to the colony.  If they need it they will use it. 

BUT DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, WHATSOEVER, do anything more than put the patty on and close up the hive.  He said that no matter how much I wanted to take a peak to see how things are going, to ABSOLUTELY NOT DISTURB THE WINTER CLUSTER, they must be left alone for at least one more month, and then a thorough inspection is OK.

He was very, very strict in his advice about not disturbing the winter cluster and leaving the bees in peace.

Guess I am with you Finsky on leaving the bees in peace.  Awesome day.  Cindi
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2007, 01:02:33 AM »


You have vast continest, from Florida to Alaska.

Winnipeg like here now http://www.weathercentral.com/weather/canada/cities/mb_winnipeg.html

Florida has weather what we have in May http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Orlando.html

NY has real winter  http://www.weatherpages.com/NY/NewYork.html

California has now weather like good weather in Finland in July http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Los_Angeles.html

So we deliver here advices how to feed hives and enlarge nucs. Just awfull.

.





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SteveSC
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2007, 10:29:48 AM »

 
Finsky..you said:
Quote
[Then I changed it to soya flour which is ment to use as "MILK SUBSTITUTE" for animal babies.  When you by from soya flour from small use it is not much in grocery./quote]

I have alot of goats and raise alot also. I keep 50# bags of high protein milk replacement around all the time for the kids that won't nurse the nannies...  I never thought of it as a pollen substitute until I read that qoute. I guess with some yeast - the milk replacement and >50% part sugar mix I'll have my pollen substitute..  I think I'm finally starting to catch on - good, I hate the fog of beekeeping... grin
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Steve in SC


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Finsky
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2007, 01:19:09 PM »

...



It is soya milk which compensate "animal mom's milk".  As it is said to "short gut animals".

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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2007, 01:50:38 PM »

finsky:
And if you travel 140 miles/ 225 km futher south to my area you will get an almost 10 degree difference. If you travel 200 miles/ 321 km south of Orlando to Miami area, the difference can be even more. Sometimes Miami can be colder than Palm Beach but usually not.

Palm Beach Airport
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=pbi
Miami Airport
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=pbi

The difference is far more dramatic with pdmattox. He lives closer to the Georgia state border over 400 miles/644km north of me. Sometimes just telling Florida beekeepers how to deal with weather issues can be difficult.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2007, 05:27:08 PM »

Can you use poleen?
kirk-o
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