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Author Topic: What is wrong with American society?  (Read 3115 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2014, 04:55:56 AM »

kathyp must not have noticed the Wall-Street speculator rip off that occurred just 5 years ago and continues today…. rolleyes
If you remember her previous posts, she’s been wrong at EVERY turn with regards to the stock market. laugh

I’m unsure exactly what you mean by the speculators ‘passing on risk’, but they sure have done a number creating bubbles and artificially raising the prices for goods on main street.  The most blatant abuse has been in the oil market futures.  I would have to look up the exact numbers again, but at one point I believe the volume of oil contracts was 100x more than the physical oil traded!  

I’m not sure exactly how to best regulate/rule the speculators; they actually do provide a useful purpose in thinly traded markets by adding liquidity that would otherwise be absent.  Lack of liquidity generates its own problems.  However liquidity is not a problem in the oil markets and we get a situation where the masses join in and drive things to ridiculous valuations.  The fact of the matter is most of the big tech IPOs are strictly driven by speculators because their company earnings do not justify the price of the stocks (using conventional P/E ratios, etc).  This is how Wall Street makes billionaires out of fluff.  See Tesla or Solar City for examples  Wink
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T Beek
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2014, 05:31:46 AM »

When speculators use someone else money or resources, that is 'passing' on the risk.  When the system assures they will receive a bailout if their venture fails, that is 'passing' on the risk...
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2014, 05:45:15 AM »

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Can you imagine a world where all outstanding debt is forgiven every 49/50 yrs? Along with several other wealth equalizers.... Hmmm Interesting No?

in fact, i can.  i'm sure it appeals to the unmotivated among us.  

what is a wealth equalizer?  how does that work?

as for TBeeks harping on George, that's ancient history.  i'm sure he has some great conspiracy as to why we are not all living it.  i'm sure he'll post volumes about it later.  it's another way for the lazy to profit from the efforts of others.  hmmm...didn't he say he was a former government worker.  that might explain his perspective.  hadn't thought of that.....

Again kathyp; you show your lack of economic knowledge as well as an unwillingness to learn……your own words example your cluelessness to this subject.
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2014, 05:54:01 AM »

Examples?  Sure, I'll start a new thread tomorrow outlying 2 very well documented 'privileges' purposely designed to enrich the wealthy at the expense of us all.  I've got 2 that I'm investigating right now so it shouldn't be too hard.  You may decide that its too convoluted though  grin

The single tax and/or the "Land 'site' value tax" (it has several names) is currently being used successfully throughout Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore, DENMARK (I've mentioned Denmark numerous times) and several other European Nations and 'minutely' in Africa, but yet you select to ignore the same examples you claim you want to see……...Go figure  huh.  

For these reasons your motives for requesting examples are at best questionable.  Non-the-less, provide them I will….

Here at home, Alabama and Pennsylvania have a number of communities, towns and cities using different forms of an LVT, some have been in business since the early 1900's.  Pittsburg is a prime example, look up their form of taxation and see if it would not work on a large scale.  A lessor example would be the "citizen dividend" provided to every Alaskan citizen for 'allowing' BIG OIL to do their thing.  I've not found a single community that turned back after adopting some form of LVT.

If I did a little more search I could easily provide many more examples…..but what good would it do?……you'll later complain I never provided it  rolleyes……what is that behavior an example of?  

Do you 'really' want to know something about economics?  Does anyone?  Few people do, because its been deliberately made more complex than it has to be.  Much like our current tax system as a whole.  Again; no accident.  Its complex because it serves 'some' of us to be complex.

An actual "single tax" on a GRAND scale, while justifiably sound in theory (ask nearly any "trained economist") has not been implemented to its full capacity for reasons already mentioned (LANDLORDS).  That fact does not negate what has been successfully accomplished, implemented and how it improved the lives of those taking the direction of the Single or "Simple" Tax or Land VALUE Tax.  Nor does it negate the real possibility of success worldwide, which it 'will' eventually come to.  It remains the 'natural' order of things.  

Once we've exhausted all other forms of political economy FIRST.

What I'll show you tomorrow 'should' cause every Forum member to contact their Representatives……………………..but it won't  Sad

Seems kathyp likely missed this the first time around  rolleyes…..was it on purpose?  Highly probable.  grin
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T Beek
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2014, 06:34:59 AM »

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Do you 'really' want to know something about economics? Does anyone? Few people do, because its been deliberately made more complex than it has to be. Much like our current tax system as a whole. Again; no accident. Its complex because it serves 'some' of us to be complex.

Agreed. Completely.

I think people have a hard time with change, they hang on to the concept that something new can't work because it isn't currently in play. When really the reason is it isn't in play because it doesn't benefit those in a position of power/wealth.
Tbeek's economic theory (lvt/single tax) while partially at work is as yet untried in whole that I can find,( Maybe someday/somewhere TBeek? ) wouldn't hurt the top so much as lift the bottom. How is that bad?

The bible was mentioned earlier,so here's my 2¢ economics wise. God is anti-interest, Meaning loans and investments. Talk about not politically savvy,yikes! Why? Because it creates a burden on the borrower, and steals the profit of (TBeek will like this) LABOR. And let's not mention Jubilee. Kathy and a few others are likely to stroke out about now wink Can you imagine a world where all outstanding debt is forgiven every 49/50 yrs? Along with several other wealth equalizers.... Hmmm Interesting No?


Interesting, YES!  I've been advocating for a "Global Jubilee" for decades!  if the well- off have strokes because of it….well so much the better IMO  grin
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2014, 10:10:34 AM »

I'm NOT SEEING two members tag-teaming another member am I boys?? Be careful - be very careful!
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2014, 10:22:03 AM »

Beemaster, i can shoot with both hands and spit.   Wink

http://jubileeoregon.org/content/about-jubilee-movement

how about this?  "definitive" ending of the many billions given to those countries paying millions to the "rich" countries.  that ought to balance things out.  along with that, ending ov all the development and money, and recovering of same, that has come with the "theft" of resources.  even close to home i'm sure the people of N. Dakota would rather go back to the way things were than have "theft" of their oil and gas. 

i'll go farther.  put the stuff back in the ground.  let the people get it out if they want it.

debt, like everything else in life is a choice.  there may have been corrupt bankers, but it was individuals who thought it was a windfall that they could take 125% equity out of their homes, or buy a home that they knew they couldn't afford.  stupidity, greed?  call it what you want.  on either end, it should have consequences.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2014, 10:30:26 AM »

The collective realization of the fact that DEBT, economically speaking now (for the novices), particularly the debt 'created' through interest is an 'illusion' set up to enrich one portion of society as long as the masses 'keep the faith' for them, scares the wealthy more than anything. 

Once the masses are fully awakened to the scam, it'll be all over…..it is the 'natural' order of things.
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« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2014, 10:39:37 AM »

I'm NOT SEEING two members tag-teaming another member am I boys?? Be careful - be very careful!

 huh  Not sure what you're driving at here, but what I see is an 'all to rare' occasion, forum members are seeing both sides (and perhaps some things hidden) of an issue one of the few times it ever happens around here.  Even the 'name calling' has been minimal…..must be the subject matter... Undecided

Who's my tag team member?  Shouldn't I know?  Was this some kind of veiled threat?  I know some would love to see me gone…………Thus I can only apologize if the content of my posts unsettle you or anyone.  

However, I believe that sometimes its the unsettling viewpoints we need to pay most attention to.


PERHAPS; cidersabuzzin was right at the very beginning of this thread, I should just grab my hat and coat………. laugh
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« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2014, 10:45:31 AM »

Beemaster, i can shoot with both hands and spit.   Wink

http://jubileeoregon.org/content/about-jubilee-movement

how about this?  "definitive" ending of the many billions given to those countries paying millions to the "rich" countries.  that ought to balance things out.  along with that, ending ov all the development and money, and recovering of same, that has come with the "theft" of resources.  even close to home i'm sure the people of N. Dakota would rather go back to the way things were than have "theft" of their oil and gas. 

i'll go farther.  put the stuff back in the ground.  let the people get it out if they want it.

debt, like everything else in life is a choice.  there may have been corrupt bankers, but it was individuals who thought it was a windfall that they could take 125% equity out of their homes, or buy a home that they knew they couldn't afford.  stupidity, greed?  call it what you want.  on either end, it should have consequences.


Do you not realize how silly this all comes across?
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« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2014, 11:03:29 AM »

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If you remember her previous posts, she’s been wrong at EVERY turn with regards to the stock market.

not sure why you think i have been wrong.  not that i believe in consensus, but i hear a lot of stock market annalists saying the same thing.  there is a bubble and the only thing propping up the market is fed pumping.  i'd like to be wrong.  i have money invested too.
if you can tell me what part of that i got wrong, i'd be happy to look at it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2014, 11:43:09 PM »

Beemaster, i can shoot with both hands and spit.   Wink

http://jubileeoregon.org/content/about-jubilee-movement

how about this?  "definitive" ending of the many billions given to those countries paying millions to the "rich" countries.  that ought to balance things out.  along with that, ending ov all the development and money, and recovering of same, that has come with the "theft" of resources.  even close to home i'm sure the people of N. Dakota would rather go back to the way things were than have "theft" of their oil and gas. 

i'll go farther.  put the stuff back in the ground.  let the people get it out if they want it.


They are off base. Jubilee is meant for the people not governments. The Israelites at the time had no formal government(king/president or otherwise, well at least not an earthly king). Anyway, the reaction shown in response is expected.
Quote
debt, like everything else in life is a choice.  there may have been corrupt bankers, but it was individuals who thought it was a windfall that they could take 125% equity out of their homes, or buy a home that they knew they couldn't afford.  stupidity, greed?  call it what you want.  on either end, it should have consequences.?

I agree. Have I implied otherwise?
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2014, 09:29:31 AM »

Tbeek plse don't be goin wer wud us bckwerd folk be gittin our edumacation from we need the learnin
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2014, 10:24:59 AM »

Tbeek plse don't be goin wer wud us bckwerd folk be gittin our edumacation from we need the learnin

I know, I know  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry  :embarrassed: , I should know better than to engage others in any form of intelligent discussion or debate around here.  It seems obvious that most people's preferences are more black and white, us vs them, tit for tat, etc….and less about seeking and discussing the more unsettling gray areas. 

That's OK, I can live with that….and have….it is what it is…. Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2014, 01:07:48 PM »

I know Kathy is more than qualified to wrangle a few liberals who think that typing 5000 word dissertations makes them appear either smarter or better educated than others, and this could likely be true, but I wonder how much plagiarism goes on around here, but I will say:

1) I don't give "Veiled Threats" I warn you of the direction you are going and hope you choose a different path.

2) saying that your self-acclaimed banter is too intelligent for the members here surely is not getting you a gold star around here. That's just calling members stupid and no-one goes there.

3) Tag-teaming is the kind of game that some spineless members have used tactically against members like Finski before. You rant on and on with jabs until the member being tag-teamed goes over the top and gets in trouble. But you see, as God-awful boring as your lectures on economics are, keeping a few Libs around who can string ten words into a fluid and cohesive sentence is akin to humans speaking in the Planet of the Apes. I compare it to the freak show at a state fair, you are curious enough to spend the 25 cents to see the cow with six legs.

Liberals are just sideshow attractions, brainwashed by MSNBC and somehow gain intelligence when in packs - much like jellyfish. The truth that Liberals are Social Creature is evident in their support group - really nothing more than hyenas pouncing on someone they believe they can't beat alone. Pack mentality is a sign of weakness, not strength. It shows that none are leaders, none can step forward and proclaim to be strong enough to lead. Truth id,, they usually end up fighting over scraps left by some other animal that was strong enough to take down a prey on their own.

I just deleted 2 paragraphs, good ones too - but unnecessary. I'm not sure why this topic got so far off course, but I lost interest a while ago. Keep throwing spitballs boys, seems to me all you are doing now is educating each other and that could go to private chat and I doubt anyone would even notice.

But don't over-estimate your own writings as victory in some battle-field you created, it is not a veiled threat to tell you that members need to watch who and what they call STUPID around here - we don't tolerate that at all. 
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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2014, 03:09:40 PM »

 huh Does 'choosing a different path' or 'direction' mean I must think and speak, and do and be like the rest of society, or just your 53% (not my figure, but one you've thrown around)?  

If so, I'll definitely PASS.   Do with me what you have the clear authority to do beemaster………..

BTW; I'd hardly 'categorize' myself as a liberal or any other such title.  Nor would I think of doing the same type of labeling upon you or anyone else.  Its not my style.  

I;m what some might call….those that 'know' me anyway...…a Realist, with a great disdain for 'any' group selecting to demonize any another group……..other than perhaps a very particular, mostly hidden group that deserves our scrutiny and possibly more.  

I've said it before…..I come around here to spread the LOVE and challenge the HATE, if that bothers other members I just don't know what to say about that, only bee master can just 'authoritatively' shut me and the ideas I bring up and out.  Hopefully it'll be for all the 'right' reasons  Wink.  

I'm sure NOT seeking some kind of "victory", that's an assumption.  I'm only spreading a 'different' perspective than you're used to, maybe never read or were aware of before.  Can't really tell by the comments or the lack of them.

You know, I'm also sometimes bothered by member comments, especially the name calling, the insinuations, the demonizing and ridicule, the bigotry and the rudeness…..all apparently tolerated by bee master as "good fun"……as long as their politics are Right (pun intended) of center, but you won't find me stooping the same level of denigrating, if so its a rare thing indeed and provocation likely preceded it.  I'm sure there are countless examples in the archives, in fact, I know there is.   Sarcasm is allowed isn't it?  I don't see it mentioned in the 'rule section.'

I admit; I 'might' just happen to be (a bit) more competent with my learning (I've taught 'comprehensive' economics, psychology and a few other subjects too), confident in my beliefs (experience brings wisdom) and certainly more vocal than the majority (just ask my elected representatives).  So it goes……Frankly, I see nothing wrong with any of those traits, in fact its what we should be teaching our kids.  They all breed independence, a word mostly meaningless now days, except when used to belittle someone that another 'thinks' isn't  rolleyes.  Then its just mean and stupid and TBH, reflects very poorly on your Forum.


What tag teaming?  I don't know what you're talking about; but I do know it when I SEE it and FEEL it.  You know yourself, 'so-called' or 'labled' liberals and even the moderates are greatly outnumbered here and get 'tag-teamed' with regularity.  I've asked about that 'tag=teaming' comment before…..well, I've asked a lot of questions around here ……and still received very few answers………..


I simply believe we are all much more complicated than you do beemaster ……….but hey, do your thing man, its your FORUM.  (I don't think I've offered anything with any more paragraphs than yourself or others to be honest).

BTW;  FINSKI never needed provocation to be a JERK.  Just ask him.


Too Long?  grin  Sorry………..sincerely, sorry………..

"I'm just a soul who's intentions are good.  Oh Lord, please don;t let me be misunderstood."     The Animals (1964)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:22:10 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2014, 03:37:25 PM »

Alright!, lets knock it off, break it up, move along, ... nothing to see here folks! Gees!, I thought I was bad!
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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2014, 06:53:40 PM »

Yeah, I get a kick out of the Mark Antony's speech where Beemaster is an honorable man? You know, something happened a while ago when liberals no longer call themselves that, they were Progressives much like they call global warming, climate change. They change the name until the title better fits and is easier to swallow.

In the animal kingdom, all animals have parasites of one kind or another and they would not succeed as a species without them. Such is the case with the Liberals, I'm sorry Progressives - We keep you around, because it's comical, we all need a break from reality occasionally. The problem though is progressives enjoy marking any conservative as a far right winger.

I think the truest statement being that most conservative people today are somewhat toward the center rather than toward the far right. I guess if there's a far right, then there is a right and probably many  conservatives are right more than they are Center. My point albeit somewhat befuddled is that progresses are sort of landlocked right there between their liberal upbringings and their outstretched hands toward the center that says we are progressives and we will meet you somewhere in the middle because we are the better people.

What you don't need to do is poke Beemaster in the eyeball though, that kind of makes him mad. But If anyone has, suggested that you find your way out the door, then it was you that spoke such words.

I just said knock it off don't call people stupid, don't say the intelligence of the forum cannot comprehend your wonderful words of wisdom that you so graciously bestow upon us. You like many before you sit here as a cat toy being smacked around by the wiser KathyP. Trust me she's got enough warnings in her day and what makes you think you're so special you can't be judged on your own writings.

I don't know you, actually don't want to, but I have to sit and read your babblings and then judge whether or not there's some content that deserves to be replied about.. It's not like I sit here in some big control room with another moderator just out of reach with the second key who when the word launch is said turns a key and your membership is launched into the abyss. It doesn't quite happen that way. Although that would be a really cool feature.

There are several moderators, not just me and honestly I honest I usually get involved all that much in the coffee house dealings it's sort of a self-monitoring place and people tell me about people like you I don't find you by myself.

I apologize to everyone if there is a cohesive issue in this post. I am voice dictating this at work on my iPhone and in my noisy control room and it isn't the easiest thing to check and correct yourself on the small screen even in Tapatalk.

Here in the coffeehouse people can debate all day long and try to represent their side of an issue as best as they can, but you call the members stupid or incapable of understanding you then it's a problem, one that I will deal. And if you think I'm talking about You T-beek, then maybe you've already answered your own questions. But I'm not sending you anywhere, but if you want to know where the door is just walk a few more steps in the same direction and you'll see the exit sign.
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2014, 08:00:37 PM »

More than once I've seen the "I am wiser than you" attitude. And the other day in another thread, "don't know why you are wasting time" on a subject. Perhaps you also look for the facts to justify your preconceived opinion of things, And then belittle others when they do it, making it seem as though they are not educated enough to see "what is really going on".
Well I can tell you, it doesn't take a genius to see that the policies of the government of the last 5 years has been more detrimental to the citizens of our country than the previous 16 years.

Something I heard on the radio the other day and it rings true:
In a capitalist society the rich can become powerful. In a socialist society the powerful become rich.
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« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2014, 09:04:56 PM »

tbeek, back off, dang it. I like to argue with you. You just need to learn when to back up and let things cool. Don't fan the flames.
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