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Author Topic: What is wrong with American society?  (Read 3174 times)
GSF
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2013, 05:35:22 AM »

Quote; Deknow <It's difficult to determine what a "Christian belief" is...clearly keeping slaves, lynching black people, 'helping' heathens become Christians, shooting doctors that perform abortions, etc are examples of things that some Christians (some of them 'founding fathers' of our nation) have justified with their Christian faith and beliefs.>

...was that yesterday?..  Wink

Let it go, good people see their mistakes and correct themselves. If I remember correctly the mindset back then was that a black person was not "entirely" human, therefore more like livestock. They saw the error of their way and corrected it.

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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2013, 10:41:05 PM »

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303997604579240022857012920

maybe this is it   grin

actually, i think we are representative of a large portion of the country.  the problem is that the majority of the population is stuck on the socialist coasts where people are crammed together and believe that government is their friend.  this is also the attitude of most Europeans i have met, so i am not surprised at ciders attitude.  after all, when your history is one of being beholden to government/rulers for any little bit of freedom or stuff, you will suck up to them whenever you can.

deknow, there is a difference between religion and Christianity.  Christianity is based on the teachings of the bible....in total, not with bits picked here and there.  everything else is religion. yes, there are instructions on how to treat slaves.  that was the reality of the times.  when you speak of lynchings, i'm guessing you are referring to the KKK of the democrat party?  that kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?  fire of some people to be the enforcement arm of your party and let them justify it as a matter of religion.....
i am not in favor of shooting abortionists, but consider this:  if abortion is murder, as many of us believe it is, then it's a murderer done away with.  if that same man had been going about killing one day old infants, the shooter would be a hero....even though he would probably have broken the law.  hiding freed slaves was against the law at one time.....but those who did it were heroes.  

as GSF points out, we are not perfect, but we do tend to be self correcting.    


Quote
If you don't agree, how about an example of this being justified legally, morally, scripturally....it is about as unAmerican a position as one can imagine.



you miss the point.  in a country where one is supposed to be able to exercise freely their religious beliefs, there is no need to justify.  there might be exceptions, as when the muslim cab drivers didn't want to transport dogs or people who had been drinking.  in that case, they were licensed by the city and had a contract to fulfill.  if they had been independent and not under city contract, i would support their refusal to carry objectionable people or critters.  
by what right do we demand anything from a business?  we pay for a particular service.  they provide that service.  if they choose not to serve for some reason, they should have that right.  let the market decide the right and wrong of it.

addition:  in the next town over, a baker was put out of business because she did not want to do a wedding cake for a gay wedding.  she had no problem serving the couple.  they had been customers before.  she simply drew the line at participating in the wedding.  they could have gone elsewhere, but instead the fulfilled the agenda and the business is gone, along with the jobs and taxes.
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 07:04:16 PM »

 :
 The Bible does not condemn keeping slaves. . Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the old patriarchs of old Bible times had slaves and God never condemned them for it. And their wives had slaves also. As a side note Abrahams wife Sara had a hand maid, Hagar, who had a baby by Abraham, Ishmael, whom the Muslims look to as one of their patriarchal fathers.
 Jesus didn't condemn keeping slaves even though slavery was part of the culture when he was preaching his gospel. The Bible did tell slave owners how to treat their slaves.
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2014, 05:31:53 AM »

What's wrong with American society?  This thread should have exploded with opinions.  I'll offer two….for now…… Wink

Too many Americans stuck in the Old Testament, not enough following the New Testament.   Cry

American arrogance and ignorance; after just a couple generations of encouragement have become stronger than its opposites.  Sad  (I feel the tide is turning)



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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2014, 12:34:49 PM »


Too many Americans stuck in the Old Testament, not enough following the New Testament.   Cry

I'm having trouble wording a phrase to search, but it goes something like this "Does God mention the New Testament in the Old Testament?" I keep coming up with tithing issues - I know there is a better way to ask.

Without me getting all Beemaster (hey look I'm a noun) on this (oh Lord, her comes the UFOS) but alas, no. We see a kinder and gentler God in the New Testament, one who hasn't tossed his laws out the window, but one who sometimes waits to judge for the greater good of  man's life lessons.

I know T Beek that we are talking about Americans here, and in this world today where there are only two types of borders, those with guns and those without - the lines get blurred on how much of these issues can be pointed at Americans any different the the rest of the Globe.

Sure the hate that people feel and the extreme differences in opinion on issues we take seem that Christians are hunting and pecking what best suits them and uses those gems of Godly wisdom as their rule book. But that's surely not unique here, nor am I saying that that is your point. But I am saying that Jesus came along in history at a terrible time, a time where word of his works would take well over a hundred years to jump-start across much of the world. He didn't go viral over night, it was a long road of dedicated people who brought the word of Jesus to the world.

Imagine though, you have an someone who knew Jesus 90 years ago come to your village to speak of him, and with him he brought nothing but his tales of the Son of God - the New Testament is still as far as 5 decades away, and mass production of it is surely slow to come and slower to be distributed. The amount of faith that the villagers, towns-folk and citizens of larger cities are thirsty for a first hand knowledge of this King of Kings they have heard of now for 5 or so generations, if at all. It was a daunting job spreading the word of Jesus Christ to the people of Earth in its early times.

Today, we have no excuse, I have four apps in my iPhone, with both books presented to me in dozens of interpretations, also read by great orators and best of all (if you wish to dive in and feel the Bible come to life) I have several dramatized versions, well acted with powerful music, towns people shouting and cheering, wagons and animal noises, stunningly created so that we can be there in ways that involve many of our senses.

To NOT uses such resources available today is missing out, with really no excuses. So I ask, if what you say is true and too many people focus on the Old Testament, than why? We understand with non-Christian religions, but those who believe in Jesus as the Living Son of God, what attracts them away from the New Testament?

Could it just be that people fell that what they know about Jesus has been well covered in their churches often enough that they believe they know him well enough and they seek be less tolerant God that shows you, rather than tells you what's gonna happen.

I'll stop there by finishing with the thought that I lack the thinking that Americans has less a grip on right and wrong because of what they read in either book. I think a person is molded and shaped by external forces and the adage that "good habits are as tough to break as bad ones" and say that most people are shaped before they reach adulthood. It then takes a reinterest in your beliefs to jump-start your diving back in the learning pool.

But I have trouble blaming any of America's issues on what they have learned in the Bible. We learn from many sources, and the teachings of Liberal schools likely has a great deal in shaping a child's mind. We have thrown more than pray out of schools, we have tossed the allegiance to the Republic out, schools can't even agree that a moment of silence in schools should be permitted, and that the child can do as they wish during that minutes times.

But if I were asked, is the cause for the lack of faith or the intolerance of others, I wouldn't rush to say "It's cause people aren't reading the New Testament enough" I'd likely say that kids are being brainwashed to believe it is okay to have condom distribution in schools because they are little puppies in need of a teddy bear to hump, or we need gay and lesbian clubs even in middle schools so that kids know that they are not alone. We are taught to be excepting of others, no matter how blasphemous their acts may be, and taught this at a young age, so that practically anything goes by time they are teens, and no one is wrong in God's eyes. I don't think people most people really believe that, I think most will think "I can tolerate them and let God sort them out" that is about where most people raised away from a liberal school system will think.

America has lots of faults, I don't think we can point at the Bible and blame its use or misuse as a primmer for developing ones life. We deal with society, News, television, movies and all the filth that Hollywood can put on a screen in out own living rooms, and somehow the Hedonism becomes accepted and that is what shapes us more than anything, I believe. Why do half the shows that are on primetime or on cable have to open with some sex scene, do you really think that adds anything to a story? Gratuitous sex, sex for the sake of titillating an audience is everywhere and we wonder why 13 year old's are having sex, well maybe because it's on the TV and mom and dad were too busy on their ipads to notice what was happening on the screne that their children were watching. I can't blame God for the fall of humanity when we invite filth into our own homes and feed it to our children.

You don't need Grand Theft Auto type games where you score points for rape and murder, and bonuses for killing cops to say we are killing our souls, you just need to see what's on the TV listing tonight.

Every Society on Earth historically dies off at one point, does anyone think we are any different? unlike any previous times in history, we have countries with the means to decide to start the final battles to kill man off this planet. We can turn to the Bible and interpret it many ways, but I think the message to be taken is, man will allow man to destroy itself and the righteous will have a chance to redeem themselves, both through their actions and through their beliefs.

It is your spirit that matters, we are all going to bury or incinerate our flesh someday. It's the conscious part of you that is all that matters, it is the part of you that came to you before birth and the part that you developed during a life time. If your life was spent always knowing that there is good and bad and you made the effort to do the good things in life, there is a place for you after life far better than it ever was here - and I think that is really what much of the world lacks, not just America - so maybe we need to keep looking for our real problem and maybe term limitations in our government is a great place to start. Even if not written in law, every so many years kick them all out, because politics wears the Devil's mark - nowhere else does character effect so many millions of people's day to day ability to survive or struggle.

 
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« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2014, 01:18:56 PM »

bee master; I find it hard to argue with your words.  Your willingness to honestly engage in discussions of this type are greatly appreciated and desperately needed in todays' society.  Some of the questions presented are ones I also ask.  Unfortunately for us all, the answers are not so clear.

As you said;  In the days following Jesus, the task of spreading his word was daunting (and dangerous).  I don't believe it is any less so today, in fact it is even harder IMO with so many claiming 'exclusive' ownership.

I don't own an iPhone nor do I have apps.  I count on the lessons from our natural world.  They are rarely wrong or misleading.
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2014, 12:48:04 AM »

I hate when I start typing with only minutes on the clock before I need to leave for work - such was the last post and forgive my spelling and grammatical errors.

Most people are working too hard to survive, and fail at living up to their potential. Raising a family today is so different than any other generation, to start with - most people I know only have one kid, because they are wise enough to know having a second would be a hardship for that entire family, the cost of raising a family dictates the family's size in the world of the working parents. Only the 47%ers can sit back and pop out kids like a Pez dispenser and not care about the consequences of their actions. I saw a 29 year old grandmother (I swear) on one of those trash TV shows as I scanned the channels - she wanted to know if the baby daddy (her words, not mine) was diddling the toddler.

The baby daddy was 19 and the baby momma was 14 - and I'll say it again, the show was about a TODDLER. Tell me how 1) he's not in jail for a whole host of reasons, and 2) why both the toddler and the baby momma aren't removed from an environment where this story makes it to trash TV. BTW, the lie detector said he was innocent and I guess everything would be back to normal when their plane landed back home. This is what is wrong with America, and the world too - I'm sure we are not the only "Civilized country" with such problems.

But we have nearly half the population just spreading STDs and impregnating each other over drugs, and we pay for it - every last dime. You know the thugs making $50K a week selling dope aren't taking care of the kids they made, we are. Where our tax dollar goes is shameful, it is against what nearly everyone would call immoral and depraved. I saw a figure in something KathyP reposted once where 1/3rd of all tax dollars eventually trickle down to 5 major crime ridden US cities. The same cities I remember where guns are outlawed, but somehow no one draws a connection to that. So, I pay about 30% tax, and let's say 1/3rd goes to these urban sewage pits of drugs and disease - well then, it sounds like I tithed 10% to the 47%ers.

We have states like Utah trying to hold back gay couples from marriage, these are moral battle grounds that I don't feel I have any need to comment on. I'd rather a gay couple who contribute to the community,  marry and raise a family and be part of the patchwork quilt we call America, than see a straight couple shooting each other between the toes with heroin - there is man's law and God's law, and in this twisted modern day screwed up world, you need to pick your battle grounds.

I have told my wife that if she ever gets off the highway and finds herself in a city like Trenton (yes, our state capitol is a crime ridden dump) or Camden or Newark, any city like that - to NEVER STOP HER CAR, look both ways and run every light until she is either out of there or the police sees she is a lone woman and escorts her out to the highway. I won't play the race card, except to say a white woman has a very short life expectancy in the bad sections of any of those cities, and the police know that - they will get her out of there, no words needs to be exchanged.

That is a sad fact, whether gangs or just the daily struggle of inner-city life has created large areas of the country (Philadelphia as an example) where they average several murders a day, and often these deaths are the police. I look at shows like Drug Inc. and see hooded crack and heroin distributors cutting up tens of thousands of dollars of drugs, distributing it to a network of dealers and typically on the same corners every single day - but it never stops. TV crews can find the middlemen, but they elude the police like episodes of Moonshiners - it makes no sense.

How did all this happen? when did people just give up and say let the drug dealers, murders and gangs run the street. We've lost great sections of once beautiful cities and in those cities that still have wonderful touristy areas, don't you dare go one block too far in any direction or you are in a third world country.

Even in the small towns and nice neighborhoods of America, children don't play much any more. They don't ride bikes, play ball or just chase each other around - they play online with their friends, losing the basic skills of just holding a conversation. They know acronyms and other texting shortcuts, they go from the bus to their rooms after school, only to be interrupted for dinner - this generation, the first generation who knows of no world where the Internet did not exist, will likely lose their far-sightedness because all they need to ever look at is their iPods.

They are victims of trying to give our kids the tools to be competitive in a techie world, and the sad truth is that having a successful child with technical skills in such a competitive world, is about as likely as raising a pro athlete. A generation ago people called locked in kids Latch-key kids, now that is the norm, not the exception. Kids don't have much need to leave the house, everything this generation needs is in the house. So kids get out of shape, lazy, obese and fuel Obamacare. We have the medical skills to have kids live to a hundred and the broadband technology to erase 20 years off that.

No one feels safe letting the kids run around and play, we have a fear driven society. When we were kids, parents said go play and be home for dinner, and we did. You literally hopped on your bike and went somewhere and played. You came home in time for dinner and life was good, your parents got peace and quiet for a few hours, you got exercise and slept good. You didn't bounce off the walls like a superball and half the kids in your class weren't on medications - what happened. When did we lose control over our lives?

I see this generation being childless, much of them - the ones who realize that even one kid is too much to care for in our bankrupted world. And marriage will likely drop too, why marry if you aren't planning on a family? The US population will easily slide below 300 million and they only thing to keep it near that number is illegal immigration.

Maybe the writing is on the wall. Maybe 2012 is just a metaphor for the final days of the American dream. A dream that illegal immigrants have a much greater chance to experience that ever before. A free ticket across the border - you know the border I'm talking about, the smashed chicken wire and decayed 1X2s between Arizona and Mexico. Is the fate of our country already written, can it be fixed before it is too late?

Can the youth of today stand up and take a stand against us losing everything so many have given so much for? Or will the 47%ers and the illegals take it all away? Are we so stunned at the decay of morality that we just stare as they grab the dream from our outstretched hands? Is our time over? Do we keep playing American family as if it is not reality but a board game? People have built invisible and literal walls around themselves, we've become latch-key parents and the only boogieman we deal with is on the nightly news.

Our worlds are becoming hamster trails from home to work to food shopping and back home. We live in a bubble, a place we construct to keep us safe and communicating through devices gives us a feeling our world is bigger than we make it. I think perception is a strange thing, we are as safe and free as the government allows. They take three things away and give one back and we feel like we won. We can't trust the very people we elect to serve us, and it weakens our faith in a society that once had the promise of a shining city on a hill. It is now just spit and polish, and mostly spit. This is what our government does for us, it is governments need to control people's lives that have caused people to respond as they do. Caused inner cities to fall like Sodom and they great lands of our country to yearn for earlier times and to still dream we can give our kids a better world than we had - a promise every generation before us kept. We are in sad shape. We are given false numbers of employment and told that we are recovering. The fact is more like people are tired of doing without and they are maxing credit cards out again, just to taste a taste off what it was like to be ahead of the curve. But as always the bills will come in and reality will come back when we started figuring which bill we can skip paying this month, so the electricity is kept on. This is the country our politicians have legislated. They know they are the only ones with job security because we keep voting them in, or better put - we never vote them out. It's Stockholm Syndrome I think? The 47%ers know where their next check comes from and they surely wouldn't want to change a thing.




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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2014, 06:25:35 AM »

Civilizations fall once the 'unequal distribution of wealth and power' reaches its tipping point.  These declines are exampled throughout history, although the afflicted  societies never see it coming for the most part.   The 'people' were too busy struggling, choosing sides and pointing fingers in the wrong directions.  The more advanced the society, the greater the intensity.  

Wages and interest fall, while rents rise (rents used in the economic definition).  The rich get richer, the poor grow more helpless and the middle class is swept away.  None of it is new.  It is a repeat of the past, but we've been conditioned to not even recognize it.

Political equality does not prevent inequality, and when combined with an increasing tendency toward unequal distribution of wealth……..will inevitably result in tyranny or anarchy.  This is the 'natural' order of societies that refuse to recognize natural economic laws.  A 'democratic system can become a dictatorship without even changing it constitution or removing elections (they no longer matter).  This is where despotism rears up, always in the name of the people.  The wealthy elite NEVER struggle when they can bribe a tyrant.

However, when the distribution of wealth is more equal, and the more democratic their government is, the better it will be.  This has been proven both in the past and during our modern times.

Where there is gross inequality in wealth distribution, having a democratic government matters not at all.  Giving the people the right to vote, who must also beg, steal or starve, to whom the opportunity to work and live is a FAVOR rolleyes this will bring about any societies destruction.  Honesty and patriotism are disabled while dishonesty brings success.  We need only look to Wall-Street for examples.

I hadn't planned on providing a lesson in economics but am comfortable doing so.  First we must know and understand that the economic system we currently practice is corrupt and heavily favors the wealthy who despite the rhetoric (they pay for) provide little to society.  They are the 'takers.'   When we pass blame on the less fortunate (that 47% so many love to hate/blame, because of conditioning) we are doing their bidding.

Nature (GOD) provides the mandates of justice in its laws.  "Nature gives to Labor, only Labor."  Whether rich or poor, exertion (labor) is required to survive.  Now if we take two people of equal income; one gets income from their labor, ones gets it from rent of land (again I'm using the economic definition of rent here).  Is it just that they should contribute 'equally' to the expenses of their community?  Of course not.

The workers income represents wealth created and added to the general welfare of the state.  The landowner's income represents wealth 'taken' from the general stock, with nothing provided in return and most importantly…………from a monopolization of land, that which was provided FREELY from the Earth (GOD) for all of life to use and enjoy.  The workers right to income comes from the justification of NATURE, which returns 'wealth to labor.'  The landlords claim is a fictitious right, created by municipal  regulations.  IT IS UNKNOWN AND UNRECOGNISED BY NATURE.  IT IS A MONOPOLY OF NATURAL OPPORTUNITIES, gifts that our world provides impartially to all, and in which we all have an equal birthright.

A"single" (simple) tax on land VALUE remains the most just system ever discovered by economists.   It falls on those who already receive a unique, valuable and privileged benefit from society.  We must keep in mind societies role in "creating the value" of land, places, etc.  The value of land doesn't come from the owner of land, it ALWAYS comes from the society that created the value, simply by living.  Society creates this value by our participation, thus we are equal contributors just by living.  Replacing all other forms of taxation with a land "site" value tax would result in an equal distribution of wealth and halt the unequal distribution and quite possibly save us all (?).

When all rent (again speaking the economic definition) is taken by taxation for the benefit of the community, equality is maintained.  No citizen has an advantage over any other EXCEPT through their own personal industry, skill and intelligence.  People will gain/keep what they earn (no taxes on income from labor or production).  

People will KEEP WHAT THEY MAKE AND PAY FOR WHAT THEY TAKE.  It really is as simple as that until we come to the LANDLORDS (I'll save them for another time, perhaps) and the pending opposition, but they would ultimately benefit under such a system.  Ending land (and resource) speculating is a good thing, economically speaking and for society.

Until we reach this point of recognition and begin to adhere to more natural economic laws we are doomed to fail; Only with this recognition and adoption will labor EVER get its "OWED" reward and capital its "natural" return instead of the corrupted (fixed) return now enjoyed at the expense of humanity and our home, planet Earth.  

Finally; we must resist the temptation to blame those who had no part in the scam that has been 'normalized' and continued to be played on the worlds people.  If we search our heart and souls,,,and use our heads….the real culprits are easily recognized.  It ain't the poor brothers and sisters.

Kudos to H.G (Progress and poverty 1879)


NOTE:  In economic speak the term "RENT" (S) means the profit gained by having exclusive control (monopoly) over "existing" sources of wealth (LAND and what's beneath it) as opposed to 'creating' new ones.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2014, 11:00:44 AM »

T Beek

I know you meant well in explaining "What us Right calls" Trickle down Welfare Economics" It's always the rich doesn't earn their money, so they shouldn't be able to keep it or the poor can't make the money, so we'll take it from the rich and give it to the poor - so everyone will sleep good in their fluffy beds and their just right blankee - I honestly think that you buy what you are saying - wow! What hippie did you just crawl off of?

I'm not sure what I could have posted that provoked such a pile of cow patties, but I don't buy a word of that, not a word. Fair distribution of wealth is a fantasy and surely not a goal of any country, maybe a few communes throughout history, but they aren't much more that the 47%ers with more camping equipment than brains. I spent 10 minutes trying to understand how money is different because of how it is earned and although I'm just jabbing a stick at you (got to poke the members once in a while, it's my job and I love it) but I don't see how you can fault someone who has figured out how to make money easier than another.

I feel sorry for the guy giving an hours work for an hours pay, I'm one of those - but I don't fault the rich because they have found a better way. Mind you, I'm talking HONEST WAYS of making money, not illegal ones. If the best I can do is work 40 hours a week and hope for overtime so I have a chance to bring home a few hundred extra dollars - then I have done my best. If a rich man sat back in his chair and took in ten times that on homes he rents, then good for him! You honestly see where the rich guy didn't deserve his gains because he put little to no sweat equity into it? I don't understand that thinking.

That is the "Why Me Lord" generation, the 47%ers parents. Those who fail to give their fairly useless kids the basic stuff they need to make it in the world and then point to the government and the rich-man and say "It's them, they are why you are poor, they are why you are a 47%er" and of course the kids buy that and two lost generations go on thinking that they can't contribute, they can only take from the system.

And how does one take, well... Wealth distribution of course, at least according to you. It isn't bad enough that those barely making it have to pay for those who don't care if they make it, as long as food and rent money come in. The problem isn't what the rich man pays in taxes, he pays his share, only using the loopholes made by the people we place into government to protect some of his riches. I don't blame him, if you can legally take tax breaks and credits, then take them. Obviously our tax code are slanted so that big companies who invest in useless technology like Solar Energy, Wind, Ocean Waves and other power sources that NEVER turn a profit when maintenance is figured it - those people, the Exxons of the world are making billions a year by spending a few million on some joke of a machine that does nothing, and we give them billions back because they did research on alternative energy - BS they did. Let the truth be told, it doesn't work, we keep wanting to get something out of nothing, it is no different that the 47%ers wanting to take and take from the family barely putting food on their table.

Enough for now, I haven't seen my wife in 5 days because I'm working 4-12 shifts and I'll have to figure out later what my 10% tithe to the 47%ers will be this week, so I can figure out what bills we'll pay. But that doesn't put me in the category of the 47%ers, they take and complain about what they get - I give and complain about what is taken. I am a 53%er and proud of it.
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T Beek
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2014, 11:53:03 AM »

No, what I was presenting was some basic truths in the realm of economics, common knowledge to those who study the "dismal science' some of which is largely distorted, some misguided and deliberately created to benefit some over others.  All sinister and 'favorable to one class' over all others.  It 'should' make your blood boil, but the conditioning we suffer from birth is a powerful force.

If you or anyone else wants to accept that as their lot in life, who am I to argue?  That was not my point or intention to convince anyone of anything, I simply presented the reality of our current economic system and how it is rigged and why.

Well, can't say I didn't try……. Wink
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:21:14 PM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2014, 01:06:49 PM »

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However, when the distribution of wealth is more equal, and the more democratic their government is, the better it will be.  This has been proven both in the past and during our modern times.

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First we must know and understand that the economic system we currently practice is corrupt and heavily favors the wealthy who despite the rhetoric (they pay for) provide little to society.  They are the 'takers.'

could you give us some examples please?
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A"single" (simple) tax on land VALUE remains the most just system ever discovered by economists.   It falls on those who already receive a unique, valuable and privileged benefit from society.  We must keep in mind societies role in "creating the value" of land, places, etc.  The value of land doesn't come from the owner of land, it ALWAYS comes from the society that created the value, simply by living.  Society creates this value by our participation, thus we are equal contributors just by living.  Replacing all other forms of taxation with a land "site" value tax would result in an equal distribution of wealth and halt the unequal distribution and quite possibly save us all (?).

i remember asking your for practical application examples once, but never got an answer.  i'll try again.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2014, 02:08:42 PM »

Examples?  Sure, I'll start a new thread tomorrow outlying 2 very well documented 'privileges' purposely designed to enrich the wealthy at the expense of us all.  I've got 2 that I'm investigating right now so it shouldn't be too hard.  You may decide that its too convoluted though  grin

The single tax and/or the "Land 'site' value tax" (it has several names) is currently being used successfully throughout Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore, DENMARK (I've mentioned Denmark numerous times) and several other European Nations and 'minutely' in Africa, but yet you select to ignore the same examples you claim you want to see……...Go figure  huh.  

For these reasons your motives for requesting examples are at best questionable.  Non-the-less, provide them I will….

Here at home, Alabama and Pennsylvania have a number of communities, towns and cities using different forms of an LVT, some have been in business since the early 1900's.  Pittsburg is a prime example, look up their form of taxation and see if it would not work on a large scale.  A lessor example would be the "citizen dividend" provided to every Alaskan citizen for 'allowing' BIG OIL to do their thing.  I've not found a single community that turned back after adopting some form of LVT.

If I did a little more search I could easily provide many more examples…..but what good would it do?……you'll later complain I never provided it  rolleyes……what is that behavior an example of?  

Do you 'really' want to know something about economics?  Does anyone?  Few people do, because its been deliberately made more complex than it has to be.  Much like our current tax system as a whole.  Again; no accident.  Its complex because it serves 'some' of us to be complex.

An actual "single tax" on a GRAND scale, while justifiably sound in theory (ask nearly any "trained economist") has not been implemented to its full capacity for reasons already mentioned (LANDLORDS).  That fact does not negate what has been successfully accomplished, implemented and how it improved the lives of those taking the direction of the Single or "Simple" Tax or Land VALUE Tax.  Nor does it negate the real possibility of success worldwide, which it 'will' eventually come to.  It remains the 'natural' order of things.  

Once we've exhausted all other forms of political economy FIRST.

What I'll show you tomorrow 'should' cause every Forum member to contact their Representatives……………………..but it won't  Sad
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 02:22:06 PM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2014, 03:55:58 PM »

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That fact does not negate what has been successfully accomplished, implemented and how it improved the lives of those taking the direction of the Single or "Simple" Tax or Land VALUE Tax

actually, it really does.  what you use as example is one more tax out of many. this tax applied to those who produce, but not exempting those who work and contribute to production.  what you seem to want us to believe, is that this kind of taxation alone would be all that was needed.  you fail to provide either current or past examples of this, nor do you seem to be capable of explaining how you think this would work on a grand scale.

to be honest, i don't think you are capable of transferring your theory to ideas of practical application.  that's ok.  it's a problem for most theoreticians.  long on grand thoughts, but lost in the real world.  makes 'em prime candidates for university positions, though!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2014, 04:45:25 PM »

Man (Woman  Wink fellow BEEK), are you not paying any attention at all?  You'd get an 'F' if attending any class in Economics…

Its called a 'single tax' because it can potentially eliminate ALL OTHER FORMS OF TAXATION  rolleyes.  The emphasis is on "SINGLE"  :buttock:  A Single tax (LVT) eliminates the need to have taxes on all 'earned' income kathyp.  Only 'unearned' income would be taxed, to include most importantly, the unearned income generated by LAND (resource) speculators.

It eliminates taxation on 'wages' and PRODUCTION , thus it 'encourages' production, it encourages growth and opportunities, it encourages "improvements'  to property because we would no longer fear the tax man when we made improvements to it.  

Think about it (for just a few minutes), you could give your rental property an upgrade, thus attracting better tenants, a higher rent, maybe less headaches and your taxes wouldn't be affected at all, because you only pay a LAND VALUE TAX which only discourages the kind of speculation that serves none but the speculators who provide NOTHING.

 PLEASE; address any of the above!  If you can….?  You know, In the two threads I've posted on today, the subject discussed usually would take up nearly an entire college semester.  Gotta go lay down for a while….this is the worse part of the day for me,,,,,,,,I'll be back tomorrow…..do your homework  laugh laugh
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2014, 06:28:57 PM »

so we are back to you showing us where this has been applied and worked?  have there been any studies done on the amount if revenue this would bring?  would it satisfy the need of government?

i also take issue with your equating speculation with theft.  in order to speculate on anything, those companies put up money and assets with no guarantee of return.  i understand what they have done in Alaska, but by what right do people claim the rewards of others risks?  if you want to share in their reward, go work for them and get paid.

just another way to get from others what you could not, or would not, get for yourself.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2014, 09:40:23 PM »

Quote
Do you 'really' want to know something about economics? Does anyone? Few people do, because its been deliberately made more complex than it has to be. Much like our current tax system as a whole. Again; no accident. Its complex because it serves 'some' of us to be complex.

Agreed. Completely.

I think people have a hard time with change, they hang on to the concept that something new can't work because it isn't currently in play. When really the reason is it isn't in play because it doesn't benefit those in a position of power/wealth.
Tbeek's economic theory (lvt/single tax) while partially at work is as yet untried in whole that I can find,( Maybe someday/somewhere TBeek? ) wouldn't hurt the top so much as lift the bottom. How is that bad?

The bible was mentioned earlier,so here's my 2¢ economics wise. God is anti-interest, Meaning loans and investments. Talk about not politically savvy,yikes! Why? Because it creates a burden on the borrower, and steals the profit of (TBeek will like this) LABOR. And let's not mention Jubilee. Kathy and a few others are likely to stroke out about now wink Can you imagine a world where all outstanding debt is forgiven every 49/50 yrs? Along with several other wealth equalizers.... Hmmm Interesting No?
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 10:07:40 PM »

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Can you imagine a world where all outstanding debt is forgiven every 49/50 yrs? Along with several other wealth equalizers.... Hmmm Interesting No?

in fact, i can.  i'm sure it appeals to the unmotivated among us. 

what is a wealth equalizer?  how does that work?

as for TBeeks harping on George, that's ancient history.  i'm sure he has some great conspiracy as to why we are not all living it.  i'm sure he'll post volumes about it later.  it's another way for the lazy to profit from the efforts of others.  hmmm...didn't he say he was a former government worker.  that might explain his perspective.  hadn't thought of that.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hjon71
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2014, 02:39:46 AM »

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in fact, i can. i'm sure it appeals to the unmotivated among us.
I believe it appeals to anyone with a moral sense of right/wrong. If God approves it how can I deny it? Unless of course someone doesn't believe in God. I can't/won't hold someone to standards that do not exist for them.

Quote
what is a wealth equalizer? how does that work?
Rhetorical or you don't understand Jubilee? Either way, the most noted is Property. Look that up. It's no fun if I provide everything.
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T Beek
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2014, 04:30:43 AM »

When speculators legally or illegally pass on any risk to others who are unaware….that is theft IMO.  

kathyp must not have noticed the Wall-Street speculator rip off that occurred just 5 years ago and continues today…. rolleyes
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 08:29:15 AM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
T Beek
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2014, 04:34:18 AM »

so we are back to you showing us where this has been applied and worked?  have there been any studies done on the amount if revenue this would bring?  would it satisfy the need of government?

i also take issue with your equating speculation with theft.  in order to speculate on anything, those companies put up money and assets with no guarantee of return.  i understand what they have done in Alaska, but by what right do people claim the rewards of others risks?  if you want to share in their reward, go work for them and get paid.

just another way to get from others what you could not, or would not, get for yourself.

I'm sorry, I apparently gave you WAY too much credit, I really did think you were smart enough to see what was placed in front of you……….. rolleyes



"You can lead someone to knowledge, but you can't make them think"  (clear examples above)
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