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Author Topic: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?  (Read 2710 times)

Offline iddee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2013, 09:48:24 AM »
My attic has vents in the soffits, my basement has vents, and the main house has return air vents.
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Offline Robo

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
My attic has vents in the soffits, my basement has vents, and the main house has return air vents.
Exactly my point....
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline iddee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2013, 09:57:55 AM »
Dang it, Robo, it's 6, not a half dozen.   :-D  :-D
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 12:52:50 PM »
Quote
My attic has vents in the soffits, my basement has vents, and the main house has return air vents.

right, but you don't leave the front door open in the winter....or you sure wouldn't here!! 
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Offline iddee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 01:28:45 PM »
No, but I do recirculate the air through a drying machine. "the furnace"
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline derekm

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2013, 04:31:16 AM »
My attic has vents in the soffits, my basement has vents, and the main house has return air vents.
Exactly my point....
Robo, have you forgotten that   The American Bee keeper's association has suspended the laws governing heat and mass flow and declared any research that shows bees are better in 75% relative humidity as heresy? :)
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Robo

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2013, 09:06:23 AM »
Robo, have you forgotten that   The American Bee keeper's association has suspended the laws governing heat and mass flow and declared any research that shows bees are better in 75% relative humidity as heresy? :)

Fortunately the ferals live by their own rules ;-)
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline BlueBee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2013, 01:06:10 PM »
My attic has vents in the soffits, my basement has vents, and the main house has return air vents.

An attic without ridge vents or a top vent is a mold factory.  That’s why building codes require them.

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2013, 01:10:21 PM »
No top vent.  It gets even worse if you have a double decker nuc with no top vent  ;)


Offline BlueBee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2013, 04:23:03 PM »
Regarding humidity:

My experience with bees has been that too low of humidity is a bad thing, as is 100%.  When you add electric heat to a hive with a top vent, it really dries the hive out.  I would guess this might be due to the nature of electrical heat vs chemical heat (the bees heat).  Chemical heat (respiration) generates CO2 and H2O as a byproduct; naturally keeping humidity high.  Electrical heat generates no new H2O and will drive humidity levels low.  When using electrical heat in the spring, I have fed my bees WATER inside the hive and they suck it up like crazy.  Of coarse they need water to rear brood; so seeing them gorge on water is a good thing in the spring.  Seeing water in a hive in mid winter is a BAD thing  :( 

If the main source of heat inside a hive is chemical, then you probably don’t have to worry about it ever becoming too dry.  At least I’ve never seen that happen in my hives.  But you do have to worry about it becoming too wet!

Offline derekm

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »
Blue bee, you have assertions and assumptions. You have assumed mold is bad and moisture is bad, give science based reasoning.
Bees live in wild with and depend on the existence of  wood eating molds.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2013, 07:10:00 PM »
I’ve had my share of dead moldy bees; so I do have some anecdotal evidence that moldy conditions do not favor bee survival.  Preventing mold is basic building science; no need to make assumptions or assertions on that.  I provided a photo for folks if theory isn’t enough.

As for assumptions, the assumption that bees existence “depends upon the existence of wood eating molds” is about as big of an assumption I’ve heard around here…outside the coffee house that is. :)

Offline iddee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2013, 07:18:26 PM »
Derekm, water is a total necessity for a human to live, until one walks into 10 feet of water and doesn't know how to swim. Mold can be good and/or bad.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2013, 08:34:14 PM »
>"bees always build up so add more space to the top". Could someone clarify nature vs Langstroth?

In nature, they have no choice.  They move into a tree, hang from the top and build comb down.  The continue to expand down because it's where the space is and it's the natural direction bees build.  Bees do not naturally build up unless the space is above them and not below them.  Then they build up.  Langstroth hives are usually managed by adding boxes to the top.  This is most convenient for the beekeepers as they don't have to lift all the boxes and they don't have to dig down to the bottom to see if they ran out of room.  They can just open the top box and see if they ran out of room.  This is much more convenient and the bees really don't care.  They will work where there is space to work.
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Offline derekm

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2013, 04:31:49 AM »
I’ve had my share of dead moldy bees; so I do have some anecdotal evidence that moldy conditions do not favor bee survival.  Preventing mold is basic building science; no need to make assumptions or assertions on that.  I provided a photo for folks if theory isn’t enough.

As for assumptions, the assumption that bees existence “depends upon the existence of wood eating molds” is about as big of an assumption I’ve heard around here…outside the coffee house that is. :)

Who or what creates the cavities in trees?
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2013, 04:47:59 AM »
Derekm, water is a total necessity for a human to live, until one walks into 10 feet of water and doesn't know how to swim. Mould can be good and/or bad.
I had a hot shower this morning I neither rotted or drowned. There is condensation and mold in the shower room I yet I live.
I ate fungus last night and mold this morning, and I prosper.
If i am seriously ill my doctor might give me extract of a mould

I agree on mold being many things since it is an order with countless species. There are both "cows" and "tigers". Why do we assume the mold on the wood is a "tiger" to bees? Since that mold is attacking cellulose. And not protein that's a big jump.

Cheese is not gangrene.


We know bees clean up mold off comb and wood. Do they eat it or sweep it away?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 05:06:50 AM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2013, 05:57:58 AM »
OK, I’ll grant you that mold/fungus can create convenient cavities in nature for bees to live in, so can wood boring insects, rodents, and other critters.  We know that bees can (and do) live in all kinds of spaces, even cellulose free places like polystyrene boxes, and old metal gas tanks.  Suggesting that wet moldy conditions are required for their existence seems like a stretch to me.   

And why would the bees go to all the time and trouble to coat their nest with propolis is they thrived around mold?  Seems this has already been answered to some degree by a scientific study as reported by the BBC:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8152000/8152574.stm

Just maybe the bees are doing the best they can to keep the mold away. :idunno:

From a practical perspective, I don’t keep my bees in trees.  I keep them in hives that have been carved out with my table saw.  If mold has a useful purpose beyond making holes, I haven’t seen it. 

I wonder how many beeks really want to see mold in their hives over winter.  :?

Offline derekm

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Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2013, 07:30:46 PM »
Having their nest sealed apart from the entrance help stop heat loss through passive and forced convection
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Brother Dave

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Re: Re: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2013, 09:49:09 PM »
I apreciate the advice I should put a few drawn out combs In the box I add below. That way the bees have a good guide. Dave

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