Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
April 18, 2014, 05:33:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?  (Read 1753 times)
karen in NH
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3

Location: New Hampshire


« on: December 19, 2013, 11:08:59 AM »

I have been studying JP beeman's videos online of his swarm and cutouts of feral colonies. From what I see, the cutout colonies build fresh comb downward sometimes as long as 5 or 6 feet. I have also devoured all the the reading material I can about beekeeping in hive boxes. "bees always build up so add more space to the top". Could someone clarify nature vs Langstroth?
Logged
merince
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 130

Location: McClure, OH


WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »

All bees build down - meaning they start at the top of the frame (or the top of the cavity) and then build down. This is why when starting a new package, you give them one box at a time and you only add the new box when the current one is about 80% done. Otherwise, the bees will "chimney" up to the top.

However, beekeepers have found out that bees like to store honey above the brood nest. Empty space above the brood nest needs to be filled with stores. Having a continually expanding empty space above the brood nest keeps hived bees busy filling it up. That's why it looks like hived bees build up. The reality is that their cavity keeps growing up. But the bees like to draw comb from the top bar down.
Logged

10framer
Queen Bee
****
Online Online

Posts: 1246

Location: Butler,GA


« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 12:07:32 PM »

All bees build down - meaning they start at the top of the frame (or the top of the cavity) and then build down. This is why when starting a new package, you give them one box at a time and you only add the new box when the current one is about 80% done. Otherwise, the bees will "chimney" up to the top.

However, beekeepers have found out that bees like to store honey above the brood nest. Empty space above the brood nest needs to be filled with stores. Having a continually expanding empty space above the brood nest keeps hived bees busy filling it up. That's why it looks like hived bees build up. The reality is that their cavity keeps growing up. But the bees like to draw comb from the top bar down.

that covers it pretty well.  bees build down in nature.
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 12:15:59 PM »

Quote
"bees always build up so add more space to the top". Could someone clarify nature vs Langstroth?

well covered above, but good for you for your observation!!!
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
splitrock
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 164

Location: Eastern South Dakota


« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 02:58:53 PM »

Adding and taking away boxes from the bottom of the stack would really turn this thing we love into some hard and heavy work too!
Logged
bernsad
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 462

Location: NE. Melbourne, Australia


« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 04:15:00 PM »

Adding and taking away boxes from the bottom of the stack would really turn this thing we love into some hard and heavy work too!
I think that is the management practice for Warre hives; adding and removing boxes from the bottom to better replicate the natural behaviour of continually building comb downwards.
Logged
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 2144


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 04:54:28 PM »

karen in NH........
   I see by a location you are hopelessly lost.  If you live in New Hampshire this may help you out.

http://www.nhbeekeepers.org/

NEW HAMPSHIRE STATE BKPRS ASSOC
 Bow, NH
http://www.nhbeekeepers.org

PTUCKAWAY BKPRS ASSOCAW
 Candia, NH
http://www.pawtuckawaybeekeepers.org

SEACOAST BKPRS ASSOC
 Lee, NH
http://www.seacoastbeekeepers.com

I also know The Monadnock Beekeepers' Association
http://www.monadnockbeekeepers.com/


  I do know you will find more links for local associations in New Hampshire on the state website. And yes I do live in New Hampshire the most south western part of the state you can go near the Connecticut River (maybe a 1mi to the west) and also bordered by two states.



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 06:04:07 PM »

brood boxes under.  honey supers over.  no brood box swapping!!   grin
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Joe D
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1809

Location: Ovett, Ms


« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 10:05:39 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Karen.  As you see if you ask a question someone will get you an answer. 
What is something to see is the chains that the bees make from the top of the frames down on foundationless frames as they build the comb.  Good luck to you and your bees.




Joe
Logged
karen in NH
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3

Location: New Hampshire


« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 07:42:17 PM »

Jim 134, I do belong to NHBA, Pawtuckaway and Capital here in NH, but nobody has the experience removing the really old cutouts that are on JP Beeman's youtube videos, thus never seeing these combs of such size.

I feel we can learn so much about the genetics of these bees that have survived for so long in a wall without surcoming to verroa, virus and natural swarming. The comb building is a beautiful thing in nature.

Joe D, I will try some foundationless frames this spring to see the chains you are referring to.

Kathyp, "no brood box swapping" do you mean that you should not reverse the 2 deep brood boxes in the Spring when the bottom deep is empty so that you are creating space UP?
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 14809


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 08:15:43 PM »

there are always exceptions, but generally you should never need to move more than a frame or two and that, not to often. 

as the bees store honey, they move down.  in fall and winter, they eat their way up.  they should naturally end up toward the top and then they start over.  people get hasty or do not realize that the number of bees is to small to cover the space and they swap boxes to "move the bees up".  all that does is break up the brood nest, and if you are inexperienced and put honey in the middle, you mess them up until they can eat or move what you have misplaced.

generally, if you find your bees in the bottom and an empty box above, they have to much room in the first place.  if you find the bottom box is crowed and they won't move up...and that happens sometimes, you need only move a couple of frames of brood up and the bees will be encouraged to go with the brood.  much easier and much less disruptive.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 2144


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 09:55:41 PM »

Jim 134, I do belong to NHBA, Pawtuckaway and Capital here in NH, but nobody has the experience removing the really old cutouts that are on JP Beeman's youtube videos, thus never seeing these combs of such size.

I feel we can learn so much about the genetics of these bees that have survived for so long in a wall without surcoming to verroa, virus and natural swarming. The comb building is a beautiful thing in nature.

Joe D, I will try some foundationless frames this spring to see the chains you are referring to.

Kathyp, "no brood box swapping" do you mean that you should not reverse the 2 deep brood boxes in the Spring when the bottom deep is empty so that you are creating space UP?


Honey Bees Festoon(ing)

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7mCOArVSkgwA7ahXNyoA?p=festooning+bees&fr=yfp-t-900&fr2=piv-web



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Brother Dave
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 90


Location: Shelton WA.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 01:58:17 AM »

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.
Logged

tjc1
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 198

Location: Plymouth, MA


« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 11:58:33 PM »

Last May I added an empty deep below, thinking that a) it would keep the bees and their heat in the same place while it was still chilly and b) that they would prefer to build down. They had a super above the brood deep from the winter, and they never moved down, other than to just hang out. They did lose the queen in May and had to requeen, but they seemed pretty numerous over the summer, yet still they never drew any comb in the lower deep. I'm glad I read this thread, as I was thinking that this spring perhaps I should do the reverse and put the empty deep on top.
Logged
GSF
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1070

Location: Central AL (nw corner of Elmore County)


« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 05:40:10 AM »

Mine was a three pound package that I received Jun 3rd. It could have just been the timing but they didn't build down in the empty super on the bottom. Not long after I placed it on top they began to build.
Logged

"Life is hard, It's even harder when you're stupid."

John Wayne
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2013, 07:39:37 AM »

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.

Better results can be found by taking a few 'brood' frames as suggested from the 'assumed' packed brood box and placing them alternately between empties whichever direction 'you' want your bees to expand to.  Below 'or' above (or to the sides if using TBH or Long Hives) matter only to you, the beek, and your intentions.  

Simply leaving an 'empty box' (ESPECIALLY Foundationless) without also providing some guidance, either empty drawn comb, foundation or (preferably) brood filled comb, will cause you and your bees grief in very short order.  

I've been using foundationless frames since 2007.  The first lesson learned teaches us that failing to provide proper guidance allows bees to do 'their' thing which usually opposes 'your' thing.   grin  Understanding honeybees natural tendencies can make life more enjoyable for both human and bee. Smiley
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 08:17:28 AM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6345


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2013, 07:48:23 AM »

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.
This is how Warre' hives are managed and it works well.
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6345


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 07:51:03 AM »

Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?

Excellent question.    Here is another one to ponder.

Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5769

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 08:27:48 AM »

""Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?""


Because man made ceilings are flat and allow condensation to drip on the cluster.

Natural feral hive ceilings are not flat and allow the drops to roll down the sides.

Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6345


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 08:45:27 AM »

""Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?""


Because man made ceilings are flat and allow condensation to drip on the cluster.

Natural feral hive ceilings are not flat and allow the drops to roll down the sides.

The ones in trees, yes.

But the ones I have seen in walls of building, gas tanks, etc all had flat ceilings.   Condensation can easily be dealt with by making sure the highest insulated value is on top. Condensation then happens on the walls.  Much better solution than upper ventilation.  You wouldn't leave a window open upstairs in your house wink
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.859 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page April 17, 2014, 03:14:15 PM