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Author Topic: Natural cells  (Read 1485 times)
Finsky
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« on: February 03, 2006, 12:54:15 AM »

Lets take again

Biological beekeepers say that commercial foundations are unnatural and small dimension fundation is natural

Lets have a look.  Nickname Wrangler has made huge work to measure both natural coms and "natural size" bees from those natural coms.

This data tells alo against Michaels data: "My bees are mostly on natural combs that they build themselves that run from 4.4mm to 5.0mm with most around 4.8mm

Wrangler noticed vatiation an measured from many natural frames:

Hive 1#
 
less than 4,6 mm.................................3%
4,6 - 4,9 mm .............................. 19%.
4,9-5,2 mm ...............................20 %
5,2-5,9 mm ...............................40%
over 5,9 mm .................................18%
 
He got pictures from Ohio and measured:
 
less than 4,9 mm........................... 3%
4,9-5,2 mm ...............................10 %
5,2-5,4 mm ...............................31%
5,4-5,9 mm ...............................37%
over 5,9 mm .................................19%
 
OBS: in three combs all cells were more than 5,9 mm
 

http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/scom.htm
 
He measured size of bees which were in hives. He says that he cannot make difference with eyes.  Only measuring reveled something.
.
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 01:25:30 AM »

Bilogical beekepeers say that in natural combs bees are healthy:

We learned that natural cells are not small or large.

And they say "in small cells bees become good and in large cells ..." Why bees raise nongood bees? - Think about evolution.

* In Finland varroa killed almost all feral bees. Some hives are alive. I know one . I has been in stonebuilding for 8 years. I mated queens with it.

* In USA 90% feral bees have died. Africanized bee take into use old nest places.

* To  South Africa varroa arrived  and killed 90% of feral bees even in natural parks.  They noticed that scutellata has not automatic resistance against varroa. They wait if natural resistance will arise after natural selection.

* In New Zeland mite killed quickly, in few month hives. Beekeeper's hives robbed from nature weak varroa hives and they got huge load of mites to their own colony. That is why all happened so fast.

* Apis. m. capensis in West Africa . Researshes say that it's mite level will be at same level as with European bee. Look cell size. http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Martin/Martin.html

* In Africanized colonies mite levels are often on huge level. Researchers wonder how colony can be alive.

* Even small level of varroa drop the economy of honey yield seriously

******

Natural beekeepers say: "There is no difference in honey yields if bees make all combs or they draw foundations."

And there is unigue global data how much one kilo wax needs honey to be exreceted.

*******************

FROM BOOK Psychology of Adult Education :

* Adult people make stong selection with knowledge which is valuable to him and which is not.

* Mostly people accept that knowledge which supports his ealier attitude.

*
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 06:23:41 AM »

>Biological beekeepers say that commercial foundations are unnatural and small dimension fundation is natural

No. I would say 4.9mm worker  foundation is closer to natural and 5.4mm foundation is further from natural, but I would say all foundation is unnatural.

>This data tells alo against Michaels data: "My bees are mostly on natural combs that they build themselves that run from 4.4mm to 5.0mm with most around 4.8mm

In the core of the brood nest this is what they build.  If you want a complete breakdown of the edges of the brood nest and the honey storage areas and the Drone comb, then Bwrangler certainly has more detail.  The important thing isn't just the size but the distribution of the size.  That less than 4.6mm up to 4.9mm tends to be in the core of the brood nest.

Also, full regression takes time and generations of bees.  What BWrangler is measuring is typically what you see in the first few turnovers of comb in a regressing hive.  In regressed hives there is much more uniform comb that stays more around the 4.8 to 4.9mm.

It is difficult to say what cell sizes are precisely because the bees build a variety of sizes.  That's why natural comb seems like the best solution rather than whole frames of a precise and arbitrary size.

>OBS: in three combs all cells were more than 5,9 mm

5.9mm is typical small cell drone comb.

>We learned that natural cells are not small or large.

Correct.

>* In USA 90% feral bees have died. Africanized bee take into use old nest places.

In Texas, that may be true.  There have been no reports of AHB here.  Mine are inspected every spring by the Nebraska Department of Agricutlure.

>* To South Africa varroa arrived and killed 90% of feral bees even in natural parks. They noticed that scutellata has not automatic resistance against varroa. They wait if natural resistance will arise after natural selection.

All the small cell people would agree that genetics is part of the equation.  Probably more for resistance to the viruses but maybe also some grooming or hygenic behavior.

>Natural beekeepers say: "There is no difference in honey yields if bees make all combs or they draw foundations."
>And there is unigue global data how much one kilo wax needs honey to be exreceted.

*I* say that.  Richard Taylor, a very old respected beekeeper who, as far as I know, knew nothing about small cell, believed that also.  It's not a math equation where W bees with X honey and Y time make Z comb.  Comb building is a complex behavior of a complex animal.

>* Adult people make stong selection with knowledge which is valuable to him and which is not.

Considering the amount of information availableand the contradictary nature of most of it, what other choice is there?

>* Mostly people accept that knowledge which supports his ealier attitude.
And experiences.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2006, 07:37:25 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>..5,9mm is typical small cell drone comb.

.


Wrangler wrote "These small cell bees raised worker bees in cell sizes that ranged from less than 4.6mm to 5.59mm. And drones were raised in cells from 5.25mm to 7.29mm".

So I see, Russians took foundation standard from the largest edge of worker cell 5,6 mm.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2006, 09:32:32 PM »

>7.29mm"

I see some of this too and the drones from those large cells look like space aliens.

When Bwrangler (Dennis Murrel) did these measurments he had been regressing for a couple of years.  Dee Lusby, who has had her bees regressed for 18 years, does not see very much variation in size.  I've seen self drawn comb from her bees and there is hardly any variation.  I can't say why, I can only speculate, but she believes that it takes several years for the bees to get settled into their new size.

The bees build this variety of sizes of cells resulting in a variety of sizes of bees who build a variety of sizes of cells.  Eventually the size settles down more, either because othe genetics (if you breed with local bees) settles down or the size or a little of both.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 02:53:06 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>
The bees build this variety of sizes of cells resulting in a variety of sizes of bees who build a variety of sizes of cells.  Eventually the size settles down more, either because othe genetics (if you breed with local bees) settles down or the size or a little of both.


OH Boy! You are going to teach genetics!
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mick
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 03:21:56 AM »

All this cell size and regression stuff is just interfering with nature.
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Jack Parr
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2006, 07:14:41 AM »

Keeping bees by humans IS interefering with nature, but we do it and have been doing so for " you pick the number of years, centuries, eons???"
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2006, 01:33:35 PM »

>OH Boy! You are going to teach genetics!

I'm not sure the purpose of this statement.  I made no complex claims about genetics, let alone my knowledge of genetics, just a general observation and the two likely causes of the observed change of cell sizes getting more uniform over time.

I am not a geneticist, and have never claimed to be.  But I am also neither ignorant nor uneducated.  I have kept bees for 32years and not just in a box out back, but experimented a lot and read a lot.  While most of what I know is from my own study, I realize it's not much, I also have over 130 semester hours of college, including  16 semester hours of college chemistry and organic chemistry, 9 semester hours of college biology classes and many other classes including a lot of math and computer science.  But most of what I know still comes from my own study and the real world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A story to illustrate how I feel:

My father rebuilt the engine on his diesel VW Rabbit.  He carefully marked the alignment of every part and put them all carefully back in the exact same positions. When he was done it ran, but not well.  He talked to some mechanic friends who said he'd have to have the timing done at a garage so he arranged a day for the garage to work on it and drove it to the garage.  He went in to tell the attendant behind the counter that it was there.  The attendant said he would send a tow truck out to get it.  My dad said, no, it's right out front, I drove it here, you won't need the tow truck.  The attendant proceeded to explain carefully to my dad how you can't possibly drive it  until the timing is set, so he would have to tow it.  My dad carefully explained that, while it did not run well, it did run and it was out front.  The attendant again explained that the diesel engine that has just been rebuild CAN'T run and he would send a tow truck to go get it.  Finally my father asked if the attendant would follow him a minute.  He took him out front and pointed to the car and said, this is the car.  Would you please set the timing on it.  The attendants mouth dropped open.

I feel like my dad right now.  I'm trying to explain to someone, who does know a lot about the basic subject.   I am looking at reality and I'm being told that the research says it can't be true.  But I'm doing it.   I know many others who are doing it.  And I'm being told by people who never have tried it, that it can't work.  I wish I could take you all to my beeyard and we can see how nice my bees are, how healthy they are, look at natural drawn comb, measure some cell size and watch the bees in the setup that I have.  A lot of people have.  But that's obviously not going to happen with someone on the other side of the world.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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