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Author Topic: Question for the Mature  (Read 1037 times)
Vance G
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« on: December 07, 2013, 05:46:52 PM »

No this not about Porn--the real mature.

I skimmed an article in Scientific American about loss of pollinators and what others are filling the gaps left.  This triggered vivid pictures and even smells from by childhood.  I was around ten when Mercury Vapor lights came to farm yards.  Suddenly the treeless prairie countryside seemed to blaze with lights and that farm five miles away suddenly was a spot of brilliant light.  Before that, the 100 watt incadescents on 15 food poles had been a dim blur.  Porch lights on homes were invariably yellow because otherwise, one had a pile of night fliers to sweep off the porch and it was impossible to go out or in without them coming in the house. 

When the bright new light went in our yard I can remember the awe I felt over how much area was visible at night.  Then in the morning, there was literally a 25 foot blanket of dead insects covering the ground.  Beautiful luna moths and cecropia's and dozens nameless and maybe unnamed.  The next year there were not so many and today they are all gone.  I can still remember the smell of burned insects over that desolation.  I remember the sweet gingery smell of one of the beautiful man hand sized moths I picked up to go show my mother.

I suppose they were especially vulnerable in our treeless flat country where the line of sight was such that one farm yard or another was going to get them all. 

I wonder if some farm boy who can actually get to the ground under all those huge windmills will see the dead bats and songbirds and the flayed eagles; the smashed bodies of sharptail grouse that cruise for miles at just the right altitude to be killed; and remember them as long gone things like the Luna moths, once of my beloved prairie.  All at a huge subsidy from the guvmint.  US!

Lets not talk of what we are losing in the plowing under of virgin ground and ground already once proven to vulnerable; to be plowed, for the production of more alcohol to destroy our engines and add huge costs to the drivers in loss of fuel efficiency.  I wonder if I can still find the wild turnips, Tipsin to you Indians, and the prairie anemone that the Mandan Brave used to court his lady in Bodmer's Oil.  So little of it left, and the brainwashed children infesting the EPA and the Forest Service with so little understanding and so MUCH knowledge of imaginary things like manmade climate change, who see the national lands as theirs and not ours. 

And no adults to guide them. 

It got clear up to -15 today and the sun is setting and it will drop some more now.  Maybe that is what got me thinking of long dead and locally extinct beautiful creatures.  DDT had been heavily used and abused for years but it did not kill all those creatures.  People lighting their yards did.   We are allowing the government and those heavy handed ignorant children to destroy industries like coal; and lets not log and lets not frack and lets  not irrigate and lets not let people raise their children or worship as they choose. 

Time to wake up folks and take a stand.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 01:18:54 AM »

there was literally a 25 foot blanket of dead insects covering the ground.  Beautiful luna moths and cecropia's and dozens nameless and maybe unnamed.  The next year there were not so many and today they are all gone.
I raise hundreds of giant silk moths every year; Lunas, Cecropia, Polyphemus.  Each female can lay 200+ eggs and have 2 generations even in Michigan.  That’s 100 x 200 x 2 = 40,000 new wild silk moths that I’m potentially generating a year.  Maybe you should join in an effort to repopulate these magnificent moths instead of just complaining?  

Quote
for the production of more alcohol to destroy our engines and add huge costs to the drivers in loss of fuel efficiency.  
Alcohol doesn’t reduce efficiency.  Efficiency of spark engines is a function of compression ratio.  Higher ratios = higher efficiency.  Alcohol has a higher octane than gasoline which means you can run higher compression ratios and hence gain MORE efficiency; not less.  This is basic physics.  Time to hit the books again.  

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with so little understanding and so MUCH knowledge of imaginary things
Throwing stones at glass houses is not always wise.

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And no adults to guide them.
Thank GOD!

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Time to wake up folks and take a stand.
Or maybe it’s really time for some Adult Education; as Hall and Oats might say.  Get your FACTS right.  Just sayin  Wink
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iddee
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 09:18:57 AM »

"" Get your FACTS right.""

He did. I sure wish you would.

Check your mileage with and without alcohol. Physics or not, I get more miles from pure gas than alcohol, to the tune of about 10%. Alcohol also burns hotter than gas, and will cook a small, air cooled engine quick
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 10:30:49 AM »

An additional drawback to the ethanol is it draws moisture from the air and does a good job of suspending it in the fuel which in turn allows some of the moisture to pass through the fuel filter into the injection system. Moisture can do tremendous damage all through your engine, injection system to the actual cylinder walls.
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hjon71
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 10:42:36 AM »

The OP covers several topics, I will follow iddee and stick with one, ethanol. Ethanol is used to help your vehicle get a cleaner burn by oxygenating the fuel in an attempt to reduce tailpipe emissions, Which it does. The amount varies depending on who does the testing, gee I wonder why....

I seriously doubt a 10% decrease in efficiency running a 10% blend, although iddee's statement appears somewhat true, I have noticed a difference too. The presumption alcohol has zero efficiency is an illogical conclusion.
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Vance G
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 12:49:18 PM »

It is illogical to turn food into something that comes out of the ground in a more dense fuel form.   I find the 10% decline in fuel economy about matches what I find when I can find uncontaminated gasoline to burn.  I guess it may be worth it to some to see people starve so they can feel good about themselves.  We can just wave the Holy Hockeystick of East Anglia over any shamanistic mythology and justify anything.  Just cook the books and the right people will get paid.   How come Leif Erricson could plant barley where there is now still ice in Greenland?  Facts don't matter do they?   We are just lucky enough to be living between ice ages and like the ant with an errection floating down the river, shouts "Open the Draw Bridge!".  We just aren't capable of what the Warmists claim. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »

I do agree it is illogical (and just plain crazy) to turn food into fuel.  I believe that was Bush’s idea, wasn’t it. laugh  

Come on now iddee, you know better.  There is a difference between the words “efficiency” and “mileage” or fuel economy.  We all know that gasoline is more energy dense than alcohol and hence you can get more miles out of it, but an engine can be MORE thermally efficient (more mechanical work per BTU) with alcohol.  If you’re trying to debate an issue, you gotta be honest with the facts.

I have mixed feeling about turning corn into fuel.  The mandate to turn so much corn into fuel has dramatically raised the price farmers get per bushel of corn to which I benefit to some degree.  It’s not all bad, even though it is a stupid idea.  I almost sound like Dubya now….. angel
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 02:24:11 PM »

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I believe that was Bush’s idea, wasn’t it


it was a bipartisan congressional idea under bush, yes.  it was mandated to expand under obama.  if it were a free market product, i'd have no problem with it.  it's not.  we really do subsidize ethanol with a big hunk of the gas tax...at around 2 billion a year.

in addition, we pay for it in higher food and feed costs.  never mind our destroyed small engines.  it is not clean and it is not efficient.  we would have to wonder then "what is the point?".

here's a couple of 2007 quotes from dems and greens....remember the congress was democrat controled at the time bush proposed the ethanol increase.

“I am disappointed,” said Senator Jeff Bingaman, Democrat of New Mexico and chairman of the Senate Energy Committee. He said Mr. Bush was “completely silent” on energy efficiency and reduction of carbon dioxide from electric power plants, which contribute 40 percent of these emissions.

“If this was a real effort to solve the climate problem, it would include large stationary sources and utilities,” said Eileen Claussen, president of the Pew Center on Global Climate Change, a nonpartisan policy research group.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/washington/24energy.html?_r=0
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 03:51:53 PM »

A high compression race car engine requires almost twice the amount of alcohol to run than a high octane gasoline.Hence the loss of miles per gallon.
The EPA does not like high compression due to the formation of oxides of nitrogen. High combustion temps create nasty output from tail pipes.
I'm with ya Vance, the same ear of corn can't be used as food and fuel unless you wish to wait for the methane, if ya get what i mean.
 A lot of the modern "efficiency" comes with great cost.
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iddee
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 05:53:27 PM »

""If you’re trying to debate an issue, you gotta be honest with the facts.""

Why do I, when you don't? I thought both sides had the same rules in a debate.

More thermally efficient. OK, so if the alcohol gets ,say, 10% more efficiency, but contains only 50% as much potential, that means it will burn hotter, but get you less miles, wear engine parts faster, and overall, cost you more. Also, causing you to burn more gallons, thus loosing the net savings of waste. A loser on all sides.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 12:48:24 AM »

The price of corn has really nose dived this year.  Deflated about 50%.  Yes, we’re talking DEFLATION again beeks!  If you pull corn ethanol out of the mix, the price of corn could collapse and bankrupt a lot of farmers.  Is that something you want?  Sadly, I think I already know the answer to that question. Cry 

With regards to miles per gallon.  E100 has about 76,000 BTU/gal, Methanol 57,000 BTU/gal, gasoline 116,000 BTU/gal.  More BTUs = more distance from a heat engine; all other things being equal.  So no, you won’t go as far on a gallon of alcohol fuel.  Guess we better forget about CNG too since it has even less BTUs per gallon of space.  If beeks like inefficient things so much, maybe we should go back to steam engines powered by coal?
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T Beek
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 05:35:59 AM »

Bush originally 'liked' the idea of 'switchgrass' as a bio-fuel didn't he?  I thought it was a pretty good idea too.

Unfortunately there's not much profit potential in developing, planting, growing, harvesting, refining and marketing a weed that can be grown practically anywhere by nearly anyone, is there?  Wow, that whole conversation was stifled pretty quick, heh?  I don't think I've heard any side of the debate talk of it since  Undecided.  Don't you all wonder why?

Again I am forced into my role as Toto, barking and pulling back the curtain a little.  The rest is up to you all…….

I've read for many years how HEMP Production would/could truly deliver on the promises made by the CORN Industry and 'without' subsidies.  All we must do is allow its production in our 'free' (market driven ?) country……..yeah, that's gonna happen  laugh

BlueBee; the great thing about farming is that real farmers (those not in cahoots with BIG AG) get to choose what they grow and how its grown.  Personally I'd like to see 'less' corn fields not more.  Variety is the spice of life……. Wink  MORE VARIETY PLEASE  Smiley  I never 'knowingly' put 'corn' ethanol in my vehicles…..as my own political statement I suppose.

Oh, ph, almost forgot.  Yard Lights?….we CAN turn them OFF you know.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 05:56:50 AM by T Beek » Logged

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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 08:11:28 AM »

Democrat's way of thinking.

Corn goes from 3.50 a bushel to 10.00 a bushel.

Then drops to 6.00 a bushel.

HEY,LOOK, DEFLATION HAS SET IN.

Sounds to me like the bull done ate the corn, yesterday.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 11:08:47 AM »

If I recall the big breakthrough the alcohol proponents were banking on was the transition to cellulose based ethanol from corn ethanol.  Of coarse than never happened because the science /enzymes were never ready for production in the first place.  Bush should have vetoed the whole thing in the beginning before so much private money was invested into it.  Now that the wall street money is in, the politicians are going to have a very hard time to kill the program.  However I have read that the dreaded EPA recommends reducing the ethanol requirements in the law Bush signed. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/us/for-first-time-epa-proposes-reducing-ethanol-requirement-for-gas-mix.html?_r=0
     
I second the motion to turn off your yard lights or at least switch to LEDS.  It seems the moths are particularly attracted to the spectrum emitted from the mercury vapor lights.  If you raise moths, you will discover there are lots of other issues determining their population besides just lights.  Like with honeybees, there is no single silver bullet to fix everything.  Creatures and their environments are complex.
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T Beek
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »

Moths are cool BlueBee.  I understand about your passion for silk worms (and bees of course) but what do you do with the others, except study them that is? 

Sorry to change the topic…(maybe it needs changing  Smiley)  Change is usually good and not always pain free but the reality is that its the only thing in life that is permanent.  Change always comes……in time…..
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 02:37:17 AM »

I suppose I’m a bit like Vance, I also found some Luna and Cercopia moths as a kid and was fascinated by them.  A few years ago I stumbled upon some HUGE Cercopia caterpillars and found them even cooler than the adult moths.  That kind of got me hooked raising a number of giant silk moths.  The adult moths are what most people see if they’re tuned in, but it’s the caterpillars I enjoy watching.  Every time they outgrown their skins, (instars) they shed their old skin and start anew with vibrant colors.  They often eat their old skins for protein.  Some of the caterpillars look like they might be from Jupiter or some other exotic place because they just look soo un-earthly.  Makes me wonder about Darwin vs God.....   

The lights do mess up the males, but the females don’t fly from where they hatch until they are mated.  Once mated, they are on a mission to find their host plants (trees in the case of giant silk moths) and are pretty good at ignoring everything else.  Mercury lights do result in some mortality, but if the lights did in all the moths, then we would never have to deal with tomato worms in our gardens since tomato worms come from adult Sphinx moths. 

Like with honey bees, there are lots of pests and parasites that victimize the moth caterpillars naturally.  If you then throw in all the human chemicals that are DESIGNED for the specific purpose of killing caterpillars, then it’s little wonder they are disappearing from some areas. Sad   
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T Beek
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 03:58:02 AM »

Very interesting, you've got my curiosity peaking now.  Thanks for for sharing.
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hjon71
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 10:23:54 AM »

I'm still waiting for the question alluded to in the title of the OP.  LOL
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T Beek
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2013, 11:33:46 AM »

I'm still waiting for the question alluded to in the title of the OP.  LOL

I don't remember a question per say…..
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Vance G
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 12:06:35 PM »

I'm still waiting for the question alluded to in the title of the OP.  LOL

I guess you wanted a dreck storm.  I primarily wanted to know if anyone one else remembered the holocaust that happened when Mercury vapor lights lit up farms all over the prairie.  Those lights arguably improved rural life but at a terrible cost.

Now we have a similar holocaust as erodible land is being plowed up so subsidized ethanol can damage engines and keep kids off the road to grandma's house do to artificially inflated fuel costs.  A   hugely expensive holocaust, the windmills out there harvesting guvmint subsidies and bats and birds by the millions.  We just can't afford this.  All in pursuit of leftist dreams for equality.  People all starving to death together in a green cave. 

Warmist cult fantasy is an expense a nation approaching collapse from the weight of government can ill afford. 
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 07:16:41 PM »

And everyone else bought bug zappers to get the ones missed by the mercury vapor lights. Growing up in town the lights were a great feasting area for bats at night so there was some benefit.
On  side note, it was a bit ironicwhen the power was out in our valley that the Amish were the only ones with the modern convenience of artificial lighting. (Gas lanterns)  Smiley.  Personally I kind of enjoyed the dark and quiet time.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 08:41:54 PM »

It’s been a while since I have seen anybody use a bug zapper, but I don’t recall them zapping the big bugs.  Electricity doesn’t kill unless a bug touches both the positive plate and the negative plate at the same time.  I don’t recall the grids being big enough for a Luna (or other large moth) to fit through.  It might be difficult to get a UL listing for a zapper if a child can stick their finger through the holes. 

I think the bigger killer of these moths are pesticides and parasitic flies and wasps brought in to combat the Gypsy moth.  Consider their food.  The Luna moths tend to favor the nut trees (Walnut, Hickory) but also do OK on Salix (willows).  Cecropia tend to favor Malus (Apple) and Prunus (Cherry) trees.  Michigan grows  a LOT of apples and cherries (sour).  When those trees are sprayed to kill “insect pests” that INCLUDES our native giant silk moths.   

I cover my caterpillars with wedding tulle or other screening to prevent wasps, hornets, and birds from eating them.  You would be surprised how HARD is to protect them from all the other hungry bugs out there!  If a wasp gets in, they will just start chewing big chucks off the caterpillar flesh.  Green blood everywhere! 

If they make it to the cocoon stage, they then have to survive the winter, the mice, the mowers, and humans raking up the cocoons (in the leaf litter) and burning them alive!  After all that struggle to survive, they only live about 2 weeks as an adult flying moth….since they have no mouth in the adult stage.

They make raising honey bees seem like a piece of cake. rainbow sunflower 
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T Beek
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 06:33:41 AM »

BlueBee; your Moth descriptions are very intriguing.  Do you/can you provide a link that a novice could learn more about this fascinating venture in moths?

Bug zappers?  I thought (wishful thinking?) they were removed from the market, no?  I've never owned one, but have been around them.   A typical if not horrible human response to bugs (and most things we fear)…feared by some…..and destroyed or eliminated by others……all part of our disconnect from the natural world.  I don't know but after up to 7 months without bugs I'm happy to see and feel  Wink their return.  For a little while anyway.

We are in control  grin at least we can turn off our power (lights) with the flip of a switch and rest in peace and quiet whenever we choose.  Our power (from BIG Energy) goes out several times a year, causing concern usually during summer months due to loss of refrigeration, but we love the lack of artificially created noise (the hum) during those outages so much we regularly just turn the works (remove ourselves from the grid) off and rely on our solar panels alone, especially during winter.
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Vance G
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »

I seem to have salix, malus and prunus growing in my yard.  Where can you get caterpillars?  I guess I would have to not use my BT while attempting to rear some.  I already let the yellow swallowtails eat one bed of roses! 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 07:10:23 PM »

The hard way to get started with Luna moths (or the other native silk moths), is to go out into the woods with about 1000 watts of lights and a bed sheet.  Hang the sheet near the lights.  The lights do attract moths and if you’re really lucky a female might land on your illuminated bed sheet.  The females don’t fly until they’re mated and hence if one lands on your sheet and you catch it, you should be able to collect some eggs to start with.  Put a mated female moth in a paper grocery bag and she will lay lots of eggs.  Those will hatch into very small caterpillars in about 2 weeks.  I have not used the lights method myself; too much work.

The next hardest approach is to collect cocoons from trees in the spring; before the trees leaf out.  I have done this, and it works pretty well to get started with Cecropia, polyphemus, or Prometheus moths.  When those moths (caterpillars) spin a cocoon, they usually also attach a little silk to a tree branch.  This holds the cocoon to the tree after the leaves fall.  Just look for oblong debris hanging from a tree in the spring and it might be a cocoon.   Pick them off the tree and put them in a cage.  The moths will start emerging in late spring after the trees have leafed out.  Unfortunately the Luna’s usually form cocoons by wrapping themselves around a leaf or two, and when the leaves fall, so do they.  They then get mowed over or burned in leaf piles!  That makes them harder to find.  Unfortunately a lot (30%+) of the cocoons you find in the wild will be parasized (eaten alive over winter) by parasitic wasps and flies.  If the cocoon feels ‘light’ it will probably be a dud.

Another approach I’ve successfully used is to carefully observe the moths favorite host plants in mid summer.  If you see an area with a bunch of damaged leaves, then SOMETHING is eating at it.  Sometimes you will get lucky and find a giant caterpillar. 

The easiest way to get started with moths is finding a local bug guy who happens to sell eggs at garden events, or buy eggs from a source on the Internet.  I have purchased from a couple of sources over the years, more recently from a guy in Canada.  He’s also got a good website with more details how to raise the various silk moths. 

Here’s a link to his page about Luna moths; how to raise, etc.

http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/Actiaslunarearing.htm

Like with honeybees, there is a learning curve with moths.  You should expect plenty of failures along the way.  Personally I find the Polyphemus are the easiest moth to raise.  The Luna’s are a little more fragile.  I find the Cercopias (aka Robin moth) the hardest to raise.

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T Beek
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 05:35:59 AM »

Thanks for the info BlueBee.
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