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Author Topic: Shortened brood cycle of Apis mellifera ?  (Read 1033 times)
Finsky
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« on: February 02, 2006, 12:26:51 PM »

Have you seen rearches were they have identityfied that brood cycle of normal honey bee has changed from 21 days to 19 days?

Africanized has and A. mellifera capensis? - Else?
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 12:45:55 PM »

I seem to recall M.Bush mentioning his observations of different breeds on small cell with shortened capping times. OH sorry, he is not an acclaimed scientist working in a laboratory somewhere. So his observations don't count.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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Finsky
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 01:21:59 PM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
. So his observations don't count.


I  counted it already.
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ian michael davison
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 02:23:27 PM »

Hi all
I have seen nothing in the UK regarding this shortened brood cycle in Apis Mellifera. Anyone got any facts/research to back this up or is it more wishful thinking. Research i have seen has shown this shortened brood cycle in Africanised bees is one of the major reasons it is more tolerant of Varroa and not the smaller cells as was once thought.
For those people that are banging on about natural control methods they seem to have forgotten the fact that Varroa is not natural to Apis Mellifera.  So what can be described as natural!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards Ian
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 02:48:10 PM »

Quote from: ian michael davison

For those people that are banging on about natural control methods they seem to have forgotten the fact that Varroa is not natural to Meliffera Mellifera.  So what can be described as natural!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards Ian


There! You have just touched it and didn't even know it. Man has put bees on artificial sized cells in hopes of making a bigger more productive bee. Perhaps the mite didn't bother the bees before because they couldn't get thier foot in the door. But now that man has messed with the natural environment of the bees, other things have a chance of messing up the bees.

Africanized honey bees are bees that have been left alone to do their own thing. They live on their natural sized combs. It has been observed that the European bees have a shorter capping times. No, not by any scientific journal, but by people going the small cell route. The scientist don't want to take the time to do the research of small cell properly to get the same results as small cell beekeepers. And since they don't want to do that, but instead take short cuts, (as Finskies New Zealand article) everyone will just follow like sheep and say it don't work and so we argue about it.

I believe there are some old bee articles from way back that mentions something about shorter brood cycles. Perhaps Mr. Bush knows what those are.
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ian michael davison
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 06:30:22 PM »

Hi all

Jerry - I feel that your post above, and its glaring inaccuracies, requires answering.  You say that you think mites never got in the door until man mucked it up, mites never got a foot hold until man started importing and exporting apis melifera into and out of the regions that contain both mites and its natural host. (nothing to do with what we put in the hive)  I also wonder if any research has been done into the bee keeping methods in these areas: I would suggest that subsistence type farming and bee keeping and simple top bar style hives with the bees building their own comb (and therefore a natural comb size!) may well have been in use in these areas.  So how come the mite crossed over from one host to another?

"Africanized honey bees are bees that have been left alone to do their own thing. They live on their natural sized combs."  
On the contrary, man has been keeping bees for thousands of years in Africa long before the Mayflower was even built.  In fact, the very aggressive nature of the Africanised bee is a direct result of the many aggressive predators and harsh environment this strain has developed in.  So, far from being left alone, it is quite the opposite.  Having lived in Africa and seen them in their natural environment, I feel I am qualified enough to comment.  

"The scientist don't want to take the time to do the research of small cell properly to get the same results as small cell beekeepers"
Why would the scientists not want to take the time to do the research properly?  They are being employed to research the problem and identify solutions to varroa.  Many of them carrying out the research are, in fact, bee keepers themselves.  When people don't get the results they want, the easiest solution is to blame those carrying out the tests...

You suggest that these researchers, and other bee keepers, are taking shortcuts with the use of chemicals and other methods for the control of varroa.  On the contrary, the biggest shortcut for the control of varroa would be if the small cell theory worked.  With the amount of time and money spent on the control of varroa by commercial bee keepers, if you could prove to them that the conversion to small cell would be beneficial, they would bite your hand off.   The very fact that the take up to this method is very low, and commercial bee keepers have not responded, should be worrying to those who support the theory.  

As to following like sheep, you will find that a great many bee keepers (particularly those whose livelihood depends on their bee keeping) are always looking for alternative methods to problems bee keepers face.

The small cell theory has not yet been proven.  The research done by the New Zealanders is probably the most in depth study to date.  To dismiss it is not only arrogant but ridiculous.  All over the world, the numbers of feral colonies have reduced dramatically, including in areas where wild colonies have been for generations.  Surely, if small cells were all that were required, these colonies would not have been affected?

Far from being dismissive of the theory, I would welcome any research, or findings, or even some proof  Shocked that small cell works.  When this becomes available, I will consider changing my management techniques accordingly.  

Regards
Ian
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 08:31:42 PM »

>Have you seen rearches were they have identityfied that brood cycle of normal honey bee has changed from 21 days to 19 days?

Its the same as it's always been for natural sized bees on natural sized cells:

“The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering.  The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed.  In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form.  It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state.”
FRANCIS HUBER 4 September 1791.

How many days have elapsed on day one?  Zero.  How many on day 20?  19.

>I seem to recall M.Bush mentioning his observations of different breeds on small cell with shortened capping times.

Several other people on beesource have bothered to time it also.  None so far have come up with any different answer.

>I have seen nothing in the UK regarding this shortened brood cycle in Apis Mellifera. Anyone got any facts/research to back this up or is it more wishful thinking.

Try some small cell.  Measure the resulting cell size.  Time it in an observation hive.  You can mark each cell the queen lays in on the glass with a letter or a number and write down the time and date in a notebook.  It's not hard to measure when it's capped and when it emerges.

> Research i have seen has shown this shortened brood cycle in Africanised bees is one of the major reasons it is more tolerant of Varroa and not the smaller cells as was once thought.

But Apis Mellifera have the same short cycle on the same small cells.


>On the contrary, man has been keeping bees for thousands of years in Africa long before the Mayflower was even built. In fact, the very aggressive nature of the Africanised bee is a direct result of the many aggressive predators and harsh environment this strain has developed in. So, far from being left alone, it is quite the opposite. Having lived in Africa and seen them in their natural environment, I feel I am qualified enough to comment.

Yes and the African bees were and for the most part still are on natural sized cells.  Usually made by bees without foundation and when they use foundation, most Africans use 4.8mm foundation.

>You suggest that these researchers, and other bee keepers, are taking shortcuts with the use of chemicals and other methods for the control of varroa. On the contrary, the biggest shortcut for the control of varroa would be if the small cell theory worked.

Precisely.  No patents or money in it, but it is definitely the biggest shortcut.

> With the amount of time and money spent on the control of varroa by commercial bee keepers, if you could prove to them that the conversion to small cell would be beneficial, they would bite your hand off. The very fact that the take up to this method is very low, and commercial bee keepers have not responded, should be worrying to those who support the theory.

What is worrying to those of us who are experiencing the “theory” is that our Varroa problems go away and everyone wants to argue that it can't be happening.

>The small cell theory has not yet been proven.

I know of hundreds of people doing it with no treatments for quite a few years.  You'd think 18 years would be enough, or five or four.  I have five.  How many years does it take to "prove" it?

>All over the world, the numbers of feral colonies have reduced dramatically, including in areas where wild colonies have been for generations. Surely, if small cells were all that were required, these colonies would not have been affected?

Why do bees crash from Varroa? Varroa come from two places. Reproduction within the hive, which the small cell helps with, and robbers bringing back hitchhikers. Those with bees in the almonds have said the number of mites from crashing hives can be very significant. All of the domestic hives were crashing and the Varroa were being hauled back to the feral hives in large numbers. Sometimes more than they could tolerate. Under these conditions, only the strongest survived.

Also, not all "feral" bees are on small cell. How can that be? The first comb an escaped swarm of large cell bees will build will not be that small. A swarm from that swarm will be smaller and a swarm from that swarm is finally about natural sized.  A large portion of the feral population have always been recent escapees.  These used to live a few years but now they usually don't make it more than one or two.

Also, a lot of the feral bees died from a variety of things that have hit in recent times. Including Tracheal mites etc.

And, finally, there are a lot of them that did survive. I find them all the time as do others. How many domestic hives do you know of that have survived without any treatment at all for any length of time?

>Far from being dismissive of the theory, I would welcome any research, or findings, or even some proof Surprised that small cell works. When this becomes available, I will consider changing my management techniques accordingly.

What would it take to set up one smallcell hive?  Don't you buy foundation?  Don't you do splits?  What would it cost you to do one small cell hive and NOT treat it?

You apparently have a lot of faith in Science.  I've lived long enough to be too disappointed to many times.

I've never asked anyone to have any faith in any Varroa control method, including small cell.  I've always advised they monitor and measure and see for themselves if what they are doing is working.
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Michael Bush
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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