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Poll
Question: As part of "normal" setup - Opinion on Queen Excluders
Have always used - 7 (14.9%)
Started without, but now use - 2 (4.3%)
Have never used - 18 (38.3%)
Started with, but stopped using - 11 (23.4%)
Run some hives with / Some without - 9 (19.1%)
Total Voters: 47


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Author Topic: POLL - Queen Excluders  (Read 1308 times)
Moots
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« on: December 03, 2013, 04:01:07 PM »

There's an active thread on the topic of Queen excluders...got me curious as to what the breakdown might be concerning their, normal routine use.

As I tried to make clear in the question...I know a queen excluder is a tool that's handy to have around and can be used in limited applications for a number of different purposes.  For the sake of this poll, that's not what I'm defining "use" as...I'm talking about on your run of the mill, status quo, normal everyday beehive, do you keep a queen excluder in place?

Thanks for participating....  Smiley
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dirt road
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 11:21:42 PM »

No...almost never use them, though I keep 1 or 2 around.
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T Beek
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 04:28:46 AM »

On the rare occasion that I want to confine or locate the queen or for producing cut comb.  That's about it.

"rarely" or 'as needed' should be a choice.
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Moots
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 04:45:52 AM »

On the rare occasion that I want to confine or locate the queen or for producing cut comb.  That's about it.

"rarely" or 'as needed' should be a choice.

T Beek,
I see your point...But maybe it's a misassumption on my part, but I think most everyone thinks they have a place and serve a purpose at least some times.  As I said for purposes of this poll, I was really trying to distinguish the separation between those that consider them a "normal" part of their setup for a typical hive as compared to those that don't.

Besides, I think everybody considers their use of them as "as needed" whether that be all the time or on rare occasions....If they didn't view it as "needed", seems like they wouldn't be using it.  Wink
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 04:57:54 AM »

OK……. but I'm not as certain as you are   Wink  I've only been messing with bees since the 70's….and I've known many BEEKS who 'never' use excluders.  And some who 'always' use them.  Go figure.

Hey, its 'your' poll do what you want……….. grin
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Moots
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 05:11:05 AM »

OK……. but I'm not as certain as you are   Wink  I've only been messing with bees since the 70's….and I've known many BEEKS who 'never' use excluders.  And some who 'always' use them.  Go figure.

Hey, its 'your' poll do what you want……….. grin

T,
And this poll has an answer for both of those groups..."have never used" and "have always used" respectively. 

I think the gray area or confusing part is that the rare and occasional use gets lumped in with the "have never used" for the purpose of my poll.  Maybe a bit confusing, but as I said....I was just trying to identify those that consider it as part of their "normal" everyday hive setup.

Perhaps I could have better worded or thought out the choices...but I hate to start changing the options now, mid stream.  Smiley

Maybe I'll kick of a new queen excluder poll with three options...

Almost always
Rarely, only as needed for special situations
Never / virtually never

Thoughts?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 05:43:37 AM »

You explain precisely why I didn't vote, but only offered commentary.  Thinking things through usually garners the best results IMHO.  Open combat may be the only exclusion  Smiley

I think you're on the right track now...
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Moots
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 08:59:00 AM »

You explain precisely why I didn't vote, but only offered commentary.  Thinking things through usually garners the best results IMHO.  Open combat may be the only exclusion  Smiley

I think you're on the right track now...

T Beek
You and I can't even agree on a simple internet poll...I'M SHOCKED!  grin

While I acknowledge and get your point, there's no reason for you to have not voted in this poll.  As I clearly explained, I wasn't interested in identifying rare or occasional use with this poll.  I simply wanted to know if you use it as part of "YOUR REGULAR HIVE SETUP"?

Now you've stated that you use them rarely....So, either that's always been the case, so you should select "Have never used"....Or, at some point you used to use them as part of your regular hive setup, but have since switched to only rarely....So you should select "Started with, but stopped using".  

PERIOD, It's really not any more complicated than that!  laugh

The other poll options we discussed would answer a different question...It's also an interesting one I think...Just not the one I was trying to get answered here...And that was by design, not because I didn't think it through.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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10framer
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 09:57:45 AM »

well, if we can split hairs i want "almost always use them".  just kidding, but my average set up includes an excluder during honey flows.  
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T Beek
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 10:01:47 AM »

Are you ever satisfied?  

I didn't vote because "YOU" didn't provide a category suitable to my own use, many others to I suspect.  How many VOTES have you gotten so far  huh  How many 'looked' but didn't bother to vote?

I vote "RARELY" OK?HuhHuhHuh?  There's no check box for that…..Jeeze louize….. rolleyes

Like I said "its your poll do what you want"  (anything besides putting words into my mouth that is  Wink)
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Moots
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 10:47:16 AM »

Are you ever satisfied?  

I didn't vote because "YOU" didn't provide a category suitable to my own use, many others to I suspect.  How many VOTES have you gotten so far  huh  How many 'looked' but didn't bother to vote?

I vote "RARELY" OK?HuhHuhHuh?  There's no check box for that…..Jeeze louize….. rolleyes

Like I said "its your poll do what you want"  (anything besides putting words into my mouth that is  Wink)

Thanks, I DID!  grin

How's the old saying go...."You try to make something idiot proof, and they just build a better idiot!"  laugh

Just curious..."EXACTLY" what words did I put into your mouth?  huh

And just for the record, You're the only one so far that has WHINED about the choices offered!  Cry Cry Cry

Hard as it might be,  rolleyes I think I'll still manage to get to sleep tonight knowing my poll choices didn't meet your approval.  grin

Hope you have a great day...
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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hjon71
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 04:55:11 PM »

Moots - the poll is fine as is.
If someone can't understand its simplicity , I wouldn't worry about it.
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T Beek
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 06:20:48 PM »

Human beings, particularly BEEKS and their vast variety of beekeeping methods are not so easy to categorize as some might assume.  This fact is a fatal flaw in many (most?) polls, not just this one.  That's not meant to offend anyone.  It is what it is.  Polls can only be trusted to a point.  Extra Care must be taken to assure that an 'objective end result' is credible and/or useful somehow.  The 'pollster' should NEVER tell someone taking it 'how to answer' a question.  It invalidates the process and may cause suspicion about the reasons behind the poll.  Again, I'm not suggesting anything sinister about THIS poll, just polls in general. 

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?   Does anyone care?  laugh laugh

Sometimes things are much more complicated than one can even imagine.  Most times IMO. 

EXAMPLE; Sometimes a helping hand is mistaken for a threat and the hand is bitten.  So it goes…….ahhh……….acceptance  Wink

"There are few things in the universe that can be put neatly in a box or categorized without certain adjustments to old perspectives and preconceived notions."

Just saying……..(is this some kind of bait n switch ploy  huh  grin)   Sorry it was not my intent to HIGH JACK this deal, but when opportunity knocks and confusion reigns, well……... Smiley
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Moots
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 06:33:12 PM »

Moots - the poll is fine as is.
If someone can't understand its simplicity , I wouldn't worry about it.

hjon,
That simple fact is becoming more and more obvious, I might even describe it as PAINFULLY obvious!  laugh...Thanks!  Wink
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 08:41:38 PM »

I use a queen excluder for queen rearing, such as a cloake board or a Timing Box.
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Richard Vardaman (capt44)
10framer
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 10:05:18 PM »

now i'm curious about how many of the people that have never used them have advised others that the bees won't go through them.
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Moots
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 10:09:28 PM »

now i'm curious about how many of the people that have never used them have advised others that the bees won't go through them.

10,
Interesting Question...

I'd be curious to hear from the 5 people who selected "Run some hives with / Some without"....Seems like they would be able to give a fair observation on how much, if any, of a difference they see in honey production between hives with and hives without an excluder.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
10framer
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 01:36:57 AM »

my two most productive hives had excluders last year.  i never would have contained one of the queens without it.  i pulled excluders back in september and that queen started laying in the medium that was above the excluder within a few days.  that's going to be one of the queens i graft off of in the spring.  we used to run between one and two thousand hives with excluders and got an average of 5 or 6 mediums with them.  we ran double deeps and we usually pulled re-supered then pulled again.  then we requeened in august and left them alone until maybe this time of year and then started feeding.  
about 15 years ago i was running 20-ish hives without and i probably averaged 4 mediums but the majority of what i got was probably from privet where it used to mostly come from tulip poplar and clover.  every now and then you'd get a few supers of privet.  we also got a lot more sumac in certain yards.  i'm not saying that not running excluders lowered production but that the change in habitat did.  i'm also not convinced that an excluder slows a strong healthy hive down during a good flow.  if you're only going to run 20 or 30 hives you could do it without.  if you decide to run 200 or 300 i think having them cuts out a lot of time consuming labor.  
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T Beek
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« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 06:50:41 AM »

now i'm curious about how many of the people that have never used them have advised others that the bees won't go through them.

10,
Interesting Question...

I'd be curious to hear from the 5 people who selected "Run some hives with / Some without"....Seems like they would be able to give a fair observation on how much, if any, of a difference they see in honey production between hives with and hives without an excluder.

It is the Nectar 'flow' that is most important.  The excluder is what is is, a tool, and it can be used for several different purposes, usually resulting in 'confining' queens to a particular area of the hive.  During a flow some BEEKS don;t want queens laying in the new honey comb, others don't care or mind, a different strokes concept  Wink

When a flow is on, bees (healthy, strong colonies) 'will' make honey, regardless of the obstacles (including Q excluders) BEEKS place before them, hence the reason some Beeks use excluders ONLY exclusively when a flow is on and/or they are producing 'cut comb honey'  I've seen little difference in actual honey production over the years using or not using them, but as said already, I use them 'rarely' and for a 'specific' purpose (each to their own I say).

If properly manipulated even a medium sized swarm will make some great comb honey in short order.  Yummy  Smiley  IMHO that is the best use of an excluder. 

I completely agree w/ 10Framer in that the 'number' of colonies being managed will dictate whether using excluders are helpful or a hindrance.
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merince
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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 10:59:36 AM »

I answered "Run some hives with / Some without", because I use them on the hives that I use for queen rearing, but I don't use them on hives for honey production.
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D Coates
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 03:23:15 PM »

Be really careful there Moots.  When T Beek realizes he's not going to get his way in a disagreement you may get called an "internet bully".

I answered used to use, but stopped.  I learned that you don't need it for comb honey and the bees work faster when there's no barrier.  I will on occasion use them for finishing open Q-cells I grew in cell starters otherwise they sit off to the side in my operation.
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Moots
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 03:34:32 PM »


Be really careful there Moots.  When T Beek realizes he's not going to get his way in a disagreement you may get called an "internet bully".


Don't I know it!  laugh


I answered used to use, but stopped.  I learned that you don't need it for comb honey and the bees work faster when there's no barrier.  I will on occasion use them for finishing open Q-cells I grew in cell starters otherwise they sit off to the side in my operation.


** emphasis added

D, about this...Can you elaborate, I've never done comb honey, but would like to give it a try.  I've notice that in the QE conversations, a lot of people make the comment that they don't use them..."except for when doing comb honey".

I really haven't had an issue with my queens going into my honey Supers, which I think is the experience of most people, in most cases....So, why is comb honey different?  If there some different dynamic, or do they just not want to chance it? 

Thoughts?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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D Coates
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 04:21:20 PM »

My 2 cents they don't want to risk it.  I know that was how I was when I first started out 7 years ago.  What I do now is put a drawn super over the brood nest then put a comb honey frame above that.  The drawn super acts like a buffer and as it fills with honey the bees are pushed up and begin to draw out the comb honey frames.  When the center ones get drawn out, move the lesser drawn ones on the side into the center.  

Comb honey isn't easy but it's not as hard to do as some folks make it out to be.  It's relatively profitable because it's not easy so it's not everywhere.  When done right it's beautiful, when done wrong it's still extracted honey. Now I only make 2-3 supers worth of comb honey a year that I use in 4"x4" and chunk honey.  I've got 20 hives but I'm going to 25 in 2014.  I'm down to 5 4x4's and 8 chunk honeys so I'll be upping my comb production by another couple supers at the least as well as trying a Ross round set up (hence the Ross label post).
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10framer
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2013, 05:15:02 PM »

you don't want old cocoons in comb honey.  the excluder is just insurance of that but it's not guaranteed.  i had a few cut comb supers this year and ended up with a laying worker above the excluder in a hive with a healthy queen, go figure.
if you're just producing bulk comb honey there's no magic, either use no foundation or thin surplus foundation.  the ross rounds and similar products may require a little more work but i can't say because i never used them.  
you want to use the hives that produce the whitest wax for comb honey, that's the appeal of the old black bees that we used to call germans.  they were mean as all get out but they made really pretty cappings.
you can do exactly what d was saying and keep the queen out more than 90 percent of the time.  it would be really labor intensive to do that with hundreds of colonies compared to slapping an excluder on, though.  
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T Beek
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 06:10:22 AM »

Be really careful there Moots.  When T Beek realizes he's not going to get his way in a disagreement you may get called an "internet bully".

I answered used to use, but stopped.  I learned that you don't need it for comb honey and the bees work faster when there's no barrier.  I will on occasion use them for finishing open Q-cells I grew in cell starters otherwise they sit off to the side in my operation.

Oh boy….Couldn't resist that urge to open old wounds heh D? 

Well…if the shoe belongs on the foot but is a better fit in the mouth  grin….there's no telling how one may respond to someone (internet bully or not) carrying an 'old grudge"………. shocked  Check "this" out…..

How long are you gonna carry that cross?  It must be getting heavy by now.  I promise I'm not worthy of the power you're 'giving' me, power that I don't want….….Besides, its not healthy for you…….please just let it go….you'll feel better  Smiley in the long run……. Smiley

"ignoring those you disagree with is an exercise worthy of exploration if you can't get your point across without ridiculing those whom you disagree" 

Personally, I prefer an 'open' mind/ BIG picture approach….to most discussions.  Do you SEE where that has gotten me around here?Huh   laugh laugh

Yep-its too easy to be a 'tough guy' or an 'expert' on the internet……..this place in particular seems to be loaded with em'……….. rolleyes
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D Coates
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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2013, 09:40:00 AM »

T Beek, A simple "I'm sorry" will do. Otherwise by the length of the response to one sentence it appears I'm not the one carrying the cross.

Moots, 10-framer is right in that if you were a commercial producer an excluder would be easier.  Out of the 4 years I've done it this way I've gotten some cocoons in 2 of my comb honey frames (ironically it was this year).  They were drones and it was about 20 in a cluster per respective frame.  I cut around them and moved on.  I normally have 90 frames of comb a year, 4 years, comes to a +/-99.5% success rate at keeping the queen out.  I do it small scale, and I may simply be lucky though.
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Ninja, is not in the dictionary.  Well played Ninja's, well played...
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