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Author Topic: bye bye lead  (Read 5376 times)
derekm
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« Reply #140 on: December 16, 2013, 11:18:11 AM »

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Logical fallacies

AH!  here is a term used by (pseudo)intellectuals as a substitute for "ya'll are stupid" (twang implied).

lets try this from the stupid point of view with connect the dots.  it's not a precise way of looking at things, but it can help us see trends.

there is a history in the world of government disarming populations as a method of control.  this would include the Brits considering disarming the American colony to control them.  this is a current history of govenrment disarming populations "for their own good" and it has long been encouraged by the UN with various agreements and treaties to that end.

we have, in this country, many leftists who do not believe that the general population should be allowed to have any type of firearm.  if they had their way, there would be no guns except in the hands of law enforcement and military.  interestingly enough (sarcasm implied) they tend to be the same people who are rabid environmentalists, anti hunting, global warming enthusiasts, etc.  

while we were sleeping, these same leftists created lovely agencies like the EPA which can help them accomplish all of their leftist dreams in the name of 'saving the environment'!

we now have the perfect storm of leftists being largely in charge, beefed up agencies like EPA, and a lawless admin that will do as it pleases by way of these agencies.  one of the things it would like to do is disarm, or at least make it as difficult as possible to be armed, the American people.  why?  maybe as part of the far left ideology, or to comply with it's god the UN, or ?

earlier in this admin, our own govenrment agencies went on an ammo buying spree.  the amount of ammo purchases was in excess of any anticipated need short of putting down an insurrection or invasion.  while this was going on, military outside war zones did not have ammo for training.  

it has not been lost on us, and certainly not on the leftists, that a gun without ammo is an expensive club.  there has been an argument made that, while gun ownership is legally protected, the right to have ammo is not.  so far, that argument has not flown, but you can bet it's not gone.

you think that we are to stupid to own guns are are being disarmed for our own good.  you bought that argument.  it's your country, so i don't care.  we do not buy it.  we do care. you can keep your logic.
has disarming the public  ever worked? If you need small arms you can still get them .

The ANC, IRA ... etc never had any problems getting hold of small arms.

As proven in syria, you need heavy weapons unless you are have another means of distraction, like politics, sanctions, world opinon, or your opponent already at war with another super power.

So all this talk about  guns and overthrowing central gov is really irrevelant. If your hypothetical fight with central Gov is a guerilla war  with small arms,  you will be able to  get hold of them any way.  If its not a guerilla war then you  are talking other stuff, they wont let you have already, i.e. shoulder launched surface to air missiles and anti-tank weapons. But even then IEDs can cause a lot of grief to a sophisticated army.

So the argument about needing small arms now for  overthrowing a hypothetical tyranny at some time in the future is not logical and has no roots in recent insurgencies.

You should be more worried about people distracting you with flawed reasoning about irrelevant arguments, so you ignore what they are really doing.


« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:47:47 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
kathyp
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« Reply #141 on: December 16, 2013, 11:41:03 AM »

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You should be more worried about people distracting you with flawed reasoning about irrelevant arguments, so you ignore what they are really doing.

thanks for your concern, but you won't distract us.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
derekm
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« Reply #142 on: December 16, 2013, 11:50:43 AM »

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You should be more worried about people distracting you with flawed reasoning about irrelevant arguments, so you ignore what they are really doing.

thanks for your concern, but you won't distract us.   Wink
Ah more rhetorical devices...A refusal to admit the premise of the argument
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
kathyp
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« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2013, 11:51:48 AM »

a curious argument though..."given the scenarios WE put forth, you can not hope to win.  give up now."  the argument itself is enough to make me reject it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2013, 12:00:10 PM »

Bluebee, you are all time asking what Jesus would do. Let me ask you. What would Jesus do if he were to go into an abortion clinic? What would he do if he was invited to a man on man marriage? Or a woman on woman marriage? What would Jesus say about not letting kids pray to God, His Father in school? What would Jesus say about feeding people who will not work? How proud would Jesus be of the war on poverty program where women are encouraged to have a bunch of babies who don't know who there daddies are? I wonder what he would say about the President of the United States winning the Lie of the year award?
All of these things are promoted by the Democratic Party that you defend constantly and you bring him in when you think he can help you defend your cause. That's borderline blasphemy.

Based on what we know;  He'd accept them all with tolerance, compassion and LOVE.  That's my Jesus  Smiley  To know him is to love him.

To the best of my knowledge the only time Jesus ever took a definitive side, he was on the side of the less fortunate, pretty much always.  He didn't think much of the MONEYED ELITE but LOVED them non-the- less..
[/quoto
Maybe based on your knowledge but not based on the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. Jesus did not appreciate sin. He said broad is the road to the gates of hell and sinners are the ones on that road.
Do you honestly think Jesus would applaud you Libs for not letting children pray in public schools and other public places. What did he say about offending little children? allow me to tell you. "It would be better if a mill stone were hung around their necks and cast into the sea. Matt. 18-5&6 read the following verses if you want to know how Jesus feels about sin.
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derekm
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« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2013, 12:49:37 PM »

The actual issue of gun control in the US is of no interest to me. And even if they did achieve it wouldnt make any real difference.

It is the habitual use of logical fallacies that is my concern.

How on earth am going to convince you of arguments on Bees, if you will not give up the addiction to logical fallacies?

I just want you to be able to spot them and not be taken in regardless of the subject or  the origin.

Perhaps I need a 12 step programme, so that people can kick the fallacy habit and start thinking rationally on any subject.


I talked to a US gun owner about 30 years ago about gun control, deaths etc... and he said "it might have worked 50 years earlier, but the boat has sailed",  I asked him for his reasons and they made sense at the time (you could discuss it logically back then) so that puts the arguments around 80 years too late
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2013, 01:45:04 PM »

Generically stated, to Liberals who are anti-2nd amendment and people outside the states condemning gun Rights, I say "Go sit under a rainbow and write a poem!" (quote from Eric Cartman - South Park)

To those who let the State take your ability to defend yourself and hand out whistles and candy canes, I feel sorry for you even if you don't. When someone has to go to a firing range to get their personal guns out of storage so they can shoot them, I ponder at how you believe THAT is okay?

To the people that call every weapon an assault weapon, I pity your ignorance. To those who will someday need protection in your own home and wish you had it, but believe THAT is what the police are for, I'll mourn you.

I have no set point to this as I ready myself for work, except to say - "A well regulate militia" has a lot of room for interpretation, to me it seems like 1) everything should be registered and 2) it sounds like a military of its own accord. I hope that all gun owners think of their weapons as defensive weapons, unless of course used in jobs requiring both protection of self and others, public servants ideally and personal protection services as another example. Got to go.

PS, WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE LEAD CONVERSATION???

 
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derekm
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« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2013, 02:26:19 PM »

Generically stated, to Liberals who are anti-2nd amendment and people outside the states condemning gun Rights, I say "Go sit under a rainbow and write a poem!" (quote from Eric Cartman - South Park)

To those who let the State take your ability to defend yourself and hand out whistles and candy canes, I feel sorry for you even if you don't. When someone has to go to a firing range to get their personal guns out of storage so they can shoot them, I ponder at how you believe THAT is okay?

To the people that call every weapon an assault weapon, I pity your ignorance. To those who will someday need protection in your own home and wish you had it, but believe THAT is what the police are for, I'll mourn you.

I have no set point to this as I ready myself for work, except to say - "A well regulate militia" has a lot of room for interpretation, to me it seems like 1) everything should be registered and 2) it sounds like a military of its own accord. I hope that all gun owners think of their weapons as defensive weapons, unless of course used in jobs requiring both protection of self and others, public servants ideally and personal protection services as another example. Got to go.

PS, WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE LEAD CONVERSATION???

 
I argued against the post dunblane regs in UK on the same basis ... it was illogical. It proved the point I'm making here, Throw logic and facts out the window and you can get anything foisted on you, from gun controls to wars. You must hold all of your polticians to prove their arguments and not be swayed by their rhetoric devices and fallacies.

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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
kathyp
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« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2013, 02:29:04 PM »

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It is the habitual use of logical fallacies that is my concern.

well see, i have a problem with people who label the concerns of others fallacies, logical or otherwise.  you seem to approach the conversation with the assumption that whatever my concerns, we can't actually have the conversation until i reject the things you think i should reject.

that's ok.  i am not starved for conversation or debate.  

in order for our concerns to be logical fallacies we'd need to be basing our arguments on things not in evidence.  since we have history and the words of the people who wish to disarm us, we don't really need to worry that we are committing and error in reasoning.  we are, in fact, following the evidence to it's logical conclusion.  that conclusion having been modeled by various countries around the world.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
derekm
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« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2013, 03:03:53 PM »

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It is the habitual use of logical fallacies that is my concern.
...

in order for our concerns to be logical fallacies we'd need to be basing our arguments on things not in evidence.  ...
NO that is another fallacy

Correlation is not causality. That something exists when something else exist does not prove one caused the other.

That gun controls exists and lead is not going to be smelted here does not mean one caused the other.

also that your logic and arguments are faulty does not imply your conclusions are incorrect. All that can be inferred is  " not proven".
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 03:40:32 PM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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