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Author Topic: bye bye lead  (Read 5341 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2013, 02:30:46 PM »

Quote from derekm; "why use logic when you can just use rhetoric?"    applause

Because Its the American way  laugh laugh

Man, you have got to come around here more often   Smiley  Your perspective is refreshing and much needed, if not desired.
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T Beek
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« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2013, 02:32:30 PM »

Naw, Australia just got tired of all the bodies….we haven't gotten there yet.
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derekm
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« Reply #102 on: December 13, 2013, 02:35:38 PM »

Quote
how many revolutions, rebellions  and  civil wars have you had ?  just one of each a pathetic score

the need for the civil war is questionable, but the rebellion was successful.  sorry if you are still carrying that one around.   evil

as for patronizing...that was not the intent.  we think differently about government.  we think differently about it than almost any other country.  the exception might have been austrailia, but they seem to have given in to the idea that govenrment knows best....
not to worry, we are not far behind.  pretty soon we'll all be one happy family doing exactly as we are told and believing it's for our own good!
YOU ARE PATRONISING and Offensive yet again and demonstrate a lack of knowledge of international history
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
T Beek
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« Reply #103 on: December 13, 2013, 03:00:38 PM »

A 'repeat offender' I'm afraid  Sad
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kathyp
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« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2013, 03:14:45 PM »

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YOU ARE PATRONISING and Offensive yet again and demonstrate a lack of knowledge of international history

by all means....correct and enlighten me.  i await my re-education.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2013, 06:03:56 PM »

When I was a lad of 12 years old my sister was killed in a hunting accident. A hunter on an adjoining farm took a shot at what he saw as a ground hog on the knoll of a hill. He shot somewhere he did not have permission to shoot.I was there when she took her last breath. I was sad and distraught for a long time but never did it occur to me that guns should be taken away from everyone else because of the action of one person. Much as I think cars should not be taken away from everyone due to a few bad drivers.
I know this topic is about lead, but it all ties together with the second amendment. And government over reach. If they can't regulate through tax policy they send in agencies like the EPA to do their dirty work. These agencies are writing their own laws, unconstitutional in itself I may add.And as an addendum to that, if all this lead around is bad, why did all these alphabet agencies spend billions gathering up stockpiles of it? How convenient before they run our last smelter out of business.

Take in the big picture folks, they are coming for all of us. We have an elitist ruling class that shows on the outside they are trying to tend to your needs while taking away your abilities to do it yourself. Self sufficiency is a bad word to these folks.And self defense.

DerekM,
You do realize in WWII the Japanese had no desire to attack the mainland US because of the armed citizenry ? This is one feather in this Yankees cap I'd rather keep. Whether it comes to the point of keeping our government in check, or keeping some other government or UN forces out, we'll keep ours thank you.
And do you think criminals are handing their guns in because they are illegal? I think not. Again, I want better odds if some nut case intends to harm me or my family. Heck a call to the police here will only take a respond time of 45 minutes to an hour judging by previous calls. That should be plenty fast enough to stop an armed intruder from breaking into my home. Luckily every one in this area is most likely armedan that sits well with me.
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T Beek
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« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2013, 05:48:13 AM »

The Japanese had no desire to attack America because the Russians were keeping them occupied, kicking their butts in Asia right up to 'US' dropping those two Atomic bombs, back when Russia was one of our 'partners' in crime and war.  Ask the Japanese who they feared more…at the time.  America or Russia?

American gun ownership, which was a 'tiny fraction' of what it is today had little if nothing to do with keeping the Japanese from our shores.  That is a myth, a part of American folklore, much like the belief that dropping those bombs was a necessary evil to save American lives…..also a myth (lie).  We dropped those bombs simply because we had them.

With RECORD gun sales and PROFITS soaring (due to all the fear mongering), what evidence actually exists that some 'boogyman' is coming for your guns or my guns in America?  Where's the evidence?
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« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2013, 06:36:12 AM »


That is a myth, a part of American folklore, much like the belief that dropping those bombs was a necessary evil to save American lives…..also a myth (lie).  We dropped those bombs simply because we had them.


T B,
I have to ask....In your little world..."exactly" how do you envision that the war would have been brought to a close, if not for the dropping of "those bombs"?
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T Beek
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« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2013, 08:47:18 AM »

My 'little' world consists of historical facts.  Fact; Before we dropped the A Bombs Japan was already pretty much done by any definition.  Their defenses were made nonexistent by the bombardment we unleashed.  We'd already firebomb most of their cites, towns, ports, military bases, munitions factories, etc…We and our Allies had pretty much wiped out their ability to carry on with any type of meaningful offense against anyone.  They were down to defending their 'homeland' with whatever they could gather up, which wasn't much by the time those A Bombs arrived, or as a few generals at the time like to call it….'icing on the cake'.  

Before the A Bombs were dropped a 'planned' invasion was already in place with "Russia" in the "spearhead" position (their troops were very anxious to occupy Japan and were close enough and strong enough to accomplish that goal).  The last thing the Japanese wanted was an invasion by the Russians…or the Americans for that matter, but they were especially fearful of the Russians.   Wonder why?  That's another interesting history lesson for another day.

Had Russian forces been allowed to invade, our 'troop evolvement' would have been more of a 'mop up' operation.  And most importantly for the 'behind the scenes' perspective, the Russians would have then maintained control over Japan and its economy, instead of the U.S.  There were some American business men who were not going to let that happen, no sir.  So the bombs were dropped and America occupied Japan.

The 'excuse' that some select to believe; that the A bombs somehow saved American lives is just that, an excuse (for mass-murder IMO).   Sad
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Keith13
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« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2013, 09:34:09 AM »

So you would trade American lives for Japanese? I believe as do most Americans that if the dropping of the bombs saved 1 American life it was worth it. Had the invasion went forward at best thousands of Russian troops would have lost their lives at worst thousands of US troops would have died. Sorry the Japanese were not going to roll over and allow the invasion.

Keith
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« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2013, 10:52:47 AM »

T beek has a very poor grasp of history.  you don't have to read American "mythology".  read what the Japanese have said. according to them, they were also very close, maybe days, from developing their own bomb which, they have said, they would have used.

we are fortunate that both the Japanese military officers and the Vietnamese officers and leaders wrote about war with us.  if you want to know what they were thinking, read what they wrote.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2013, 12:16:53 PM »

T beek has a very poor grasp of history.  you don't have to read American "mythology".  read what the Japanese have said. according to them, they were also very close, maybe days, from developing their own bomb which, they have said, they would have used.

we are fortunate that both the Japanese military officers and the Vietnamese officers and leaders wrote about war with us.  if you want to know what they were thinking, read what they wrote.

Really?  Could it be…..Perhaps some folks simply prefer their own version of history?  I have no problem with that, at least until fantasy tries to trump reality, ideology trumps reason.  

kathyp; You certainly enjoy the role of teacher (boss, queen bee  Wink, the one in charge, dictating the course of any conversation you engage), assigning reading assignments regularly to those you assume needs such assignments.  Some of your assignments as well as 'some' (just some, not all) of your opinions might get you in some trouble in most colleges anywhere History is taught.  You also make a habit of ignoring or completely failing to address the content of those you disagree with, instead relying on insults and ridicule to shut it down.  

What's up with all that? I know you can do better.  I just know it.  Why not debate what was said and not assume I haven't read what 'all sides' of all wars fought by this Country have said, and I'm called arrogant?  Please, oh please, show me the way…..

To be honest I believe 'civility' is more important than getting ones point across, in fact it is with civility that we can.  

I've been accused of "trying to change minds on a beekeeping forum" when nothing could be further from the truth.  However, I don't mind saying that I'm seeking open minds willing to engage in respectful debate.  Throwing insults and categorizing a segment of society perceived to be the enemy is self imposed inslavement IMO

"Dogmatic ideological parties tend to splinter the social and political fabric of a Nation"  George Romney


"SPEAK THE TRUTH BUT RIDE A FAST HORSE"    grin
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 12:34:42 PM by T Beek » Logged

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Moots
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« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2013, 12:24:42 PM »

My 'little' world consists of historical facts.  Fact; Before we dropped the A Bombs Japan was already pretty much done by any definition.  Their defenses were made nonexistent by the bombardment we unleashed.  We'd already firebomb most of their cites, towns, ports, military bases, munitions factories, etc…We and our Allies had pretty much wiped out their ability to carry on with any type of meaningful offense against anyone.  They were down to defending their 'homeland' with whatever they could gather up, which wasn't much by the time those A Bombs arrived, or as a few generals at the time like to call it….'icing on the cake'.  


T B,
Walt Disney should have had your imagination!  laugh

Yeah, they were so "done' and "ready" to give up that a mere ONE atomic bomb wasn't enough to convince them, it took a second bomb to get them there.


Before the A Bombs were dropped a 'planned' invasion was already in place with "Russia" in the "spearhead" position (their troops were very anxious to occupy Japan and were close enough and strong enough to accomplish that goal).  The last thing the Japanese wanted was an invasion by the Russians…or the Americans for that matter, but they were especially fearful of the Russians.   Wonder why?  That's another interesting history lesson for another day.

Had Russian forces been allowed to invade, our 'troop evolvement' would have been more of a 'mop up' operation.  And most importantly for the 'behind the scenes' perspective, the Russians would have then maintained control over Japan and its economy, instead of the U.S.  There were some American business men who were not going to let that happen, no sir.  So the bombs were dropped and America occupied Japan.


The size of the invading force being planned for the invasion of mainland Japan dwarfed that of D-Day, while I can't quote you exactly what the makeup of that force would have been, I'm confident your describing America's planned contribution as "mop up" is GROSSLY UNDERSTATED.  My father at that time was a young man in the Army Air Corps training as a belly gunner on a B-24 for the pending invasion of Japan.  To argue that the dropping of the bomb didn't save American lives is simply asinine.  One of those lives could have well been my father, the consequences of which does't escape me or my six siblings, or their 10 children.
There are some who have even made logical arguments that it may have actually saved Japanese lives in the long run.


The 'excuse' that some select to believe; that the A bombs somehow saved American lives is just that, an excuse (for mass-murder IMO).   Sad

As they say T B, WAR IS HELL! 
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T Beek
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« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2013, 12:42:31 PM »

War is Hell?  I do know a few things about war Moots.  What are your experiences with war?  Where did you learn your version of history?  Is it beyond what we are taught in H.S. ?  The assertions you claim show a lack of understanding of the events as they took place IMO.

No sir, in the words of another one my personal heroes; USMC Brigider General Smedly Butler, who declared a long time ago that;

                                                                               WAR IS A RACKET!
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T Beek
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« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2013, 12:57:27 PM »

So you would trade American lives for Japanese? I believe as do most Americans that if the dropping of the bombs saved 1 American life it was worth it. Had the invasion went forward at best thousands of Russian troops would have lost their lives at worst thousands of US troops would have died. Sorry the Japanese were not going to roll over and allow the invasion.

Keith

As I 'tried' to explain, the Russians were already at Japans Doorstep BEFORE the A-Bombs were dropped.  And had plenty in the region to overtake any kind of force the Japanese could have assembled.  By the time of the projected arriving of any American forces the job of occupying Japan would have been completed. 

In reality most Americans were quite weary of the war in those weeks before the bombing took and were looking forward to its end, while the Russians, even after already loosing 20 million in Europe were still hungry and anxious to get their hands on some of the spoils they saw being divided up by us and mostly Great Britain. 

LOOK IT UP!
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kathyp
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« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2013, 02:47:35 PM »

Quote
kathyp; You certainly enjoy the role of teacher (boss, queen bee  Wink, the one in charge, dictating the course of any conversation you engage), assigning reading assignments regularly to those you assume needs such assignments.  Some of your assignments as well as 'some' (just some, not all) of your opinions might get you in some trouble in most colleges anywhere History is taught.  You also make a habit of ignoring or completely failing to address the content of those you disagree with, instead relying on insults and ridicule to shut it down. 

not sure what you think i have failed to address.  i have spent more time addressing your posts than any other...and you know it and love it.  most of what you post seems designed to get attention.

if you don't like the reading that i share, don't read it.  don't think i have ever even asked if anyone read anything i posted, so it's hardly an assignment.

you are an attention seeker.  sometimes you do tick me off and i respond in ways that i should not.  i suppose the easiest thing would be to ignore you, but then your misinformation would stand.  you want to play?  we can play.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2013, 03:10:35 PM »

I guess our secret is out then, heh?  grin   Play?  You don't know how IMO.  Your failure to actually address, meaning to identify or discuss a presumed flaw in any of my statements or opinions is evidenced everywhere around here.  Just look.

Attention seeker?  Who has over 10,000 posts (just here on beemaster) filled with their own brand of misinformation, much of it coming directly from the JBS (John Birch Society) or its latest manifestation (tea anyone?) playbook?  Whether done consciously or not matters little, what is most important is that we stay divided on trivial issues that serve our masters.

We all decide whether we're going to put our efforts into building relationships or destroy them, whether we're going to be unifiers or dividers.  We all get to choose how we react to the world.  No one is twisting my arm anyway.  Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2013, 07:05:23 PM »


War is Hell?  I do know a few things about war Moots. 


T B,
I'm impressed to know you think you know a "few things" about something...From reading your post, one gets the impression that you think you know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING!  Wink


What are your experiences with war?  Where did you learn your version of history?  Is it beyond what we are taught in H.S. ? 


T B,
I'm not going to post my transcript or resume for you, and I never claimed to be an expert on war, or history.  Neither of those are required to see the flaws in your statement.



The assertions you claim show a lack of understanding of the events as they took place IMO.


Well T B, we all know what they say about opinions...They're just like butt-holes, everybody's got one!  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #118 on: December 15, 2013, 02:26:14 AM »

Is Fox News handing out transcripts now laugh  It’s pretty clear who knows their history and who doesn’t.

I believe as do most Americans that if the dropping of the bombs saved 1 American life it was worth it.
Do you really think that’s what Jesus would do to civilians too?  Wow huh

Buzzbee, sad to hear about your sister Cry  I would agree that the bigger problem with gun violence is irresponsible people (and/or mentally ill) being allowed to keep guns.  The problem is the gun lobby is so opposed to ANY compromises that the moderate politicians will eventually have to evoke the “nuclear” option (ie majority rules) to address the craziness we see almost every day on the evening news. 
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T Beek
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« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2013, 05:00:24 AM »

Sometimes a personal perspective of the world becomes a personal truth, despite any form of reality, often in direct contrast to reality.  Whenever these personal truths are challenged it is telling what gets debated, the challenger or the personal truth.  

A narcissist will generally debate or 'more often' ridicule the 'challenger' because their personal truth always lacks the evidence of reality.  Its hard to debate fantasy, easy to ridicule or call someone names.

Sometimes a narcissist is just a narcissist.  You can tell them by their absolute refusal to look in a mirror  grin.  Ummm, that's a metaphor  Wink
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:16:37 AM by T Beek » Logged

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