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Author Topic: bye bye lead  (Read 4097 times)
Moots
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« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2013, 06:19:22 AM »


Do you really think that’s what Jesus would do to civilians too?  Wow huh


I LOVE the way Blue always plays the Jesus card......CLASSIC!  laugh


I would agree that the bigger problem with gun violence is irresponsible people (and/or mentally ill) being allowed to keep guns.  The problem is the gun lobby is so opposed to ANY compromises that the moderate politicians will eventually have to evoke the “nuclear” option (ie majority rules) to address the craziness we see almost every day on the evening news. 


MANY, MANY, MANY more lives are lost annually due to the irresponsible use of automobiles, and/or alcohol...When are the politicians   going to have to evoke the "nuclear" option to address the craziness and outlaw the two of these?




Sometimes a personal perspective of the world becomes a personal truth, despite any form of reality, often in direct contrast to reality.  Whenever these personal truths are challenged it is telling what gets debated, the challenger or the personal truth.  

A narcissist will generally debate or 'more often' ridicule the 'challenger' because their personal truth always lacks the evidence of reality.  Its hard to debate fantasy, easy to ridicule or call someone names.

Sometimes a narcissist is just a narcissist.  You can tell them by their absolute refusal to look in a mirror  grin.  Ummm, that's a metaphor  Wink


T B,
SOOOooo.....This is how you demonstrate your ability to "debate the issues" and not "ridicule the challenger".

That's an interesting response for someone who responded with the following when I questioned their "personal truth"...
What are your experiences with war?  Where did you learn your version of history?  Is it beyond what we are taught in H.S. ?                                         
Hmm....Kind of appears that you wanted to make the debate about me.  As you would say "ridicule the challenger" 
It might be time to go find that mirror from your metaphor.  grin

Regardless, you're certainly entitled to your opinion as to why I won't spend countless hours delving into the deeper recesses of the issues you want to debate....If you believe it's because I'm a narcissist, that's fine, trying to change your mind isn't anywhere on my "to do" list.  Smiley

As we know, the thing about opinions are...Everybody gets one..

My opinion is that you're a few sandwiches short of a picnic and it would be a more productive use of my time debating with a brick wall.




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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2013, 08:34:51 AM »

Moots; Thank you for making my point for me, sorry you're so offended by it. Sincerely sorry.  Really, no kidding.

IMO; One should resist the temptation to engage in debate with a narcissist, unless also willing to suffer the pain of their wrath (see previous pages for examples).

My personal philosophy is to 'kill them with love', which is often misunderstood, while persistently presenting them with challenging thoughts, ideas and opinions.  Unfortunately, real breakthroughs occur infrequently at best.

What's wrong with 'playing the Jesus" card?  Why should anyone (or any Cable Program) self-proclaim exclusive ownership?  Why are some allowed to do so and others are ridiculed when they do?  FYI; One of my tattoos is WWJD, a constant reminder I suppose.

                                                                 Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley


Ok, Here we go, please allow me to present an IDEA to you all. 

I caught this quote on C-SPAN (Washington Journal) yesterday from a caller in Texas, ideal for this thread which has taken a few too many right turns IMO  grin

"The 2nd Amendment reflects an important wisdom of its time, supporting freedom through a 'well-regulated militia.'  However, it is undeniable that our current military reality has fundamentally changed since its writing.  Isn't it about time that our interpretation of its intent also reflects the best interests and safety of society today?"

Discussion?  Thoughts?  Ridicule?  I'm ready……... grin
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Keith13
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« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2013, 10:29:07 AM »

Moots; Thank you for making my point for me, sorry you're so offended by it. Sincerely sorry.  Really, no kidding.

IMO; One should resist the temptation to engage in debate with a narcissist, unless also willing to suffer the pain of their wrath (see previous pages for examples).

My personal philosophy is to 'kill them with love', which is often misunderstood, while persistently presenting them with challenging thoughts, ideas and opinions.  Unfortunately, real breakthroughs occur infrequently at best.

What's wrong with 'playing the Jesus" card?  Why should anyone (or any Cable Program) self-proclaim exclusive ownership?  Why are some allowed to do so and others are ridiculed when they do?  FYI; One of my tattoos is WWJD, a constant reminder I suppose.

                                                                 Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley


Ok, Here we go, please allow me to present an IDEA to you all. 

I caught this quote on C-SPAN (Washington Journal) yesterday from a caller in Texas, ideal for this thread which has taken a few too many right turns IMO  grin

"The 2nd Amendment reflects an important wisdom of its time, supporting freedom through a 'well-regulated militia.'  However, it is undeniable that our current military reality has fundamentally changed since its writing.  Isn't it about time that our interpretation of its intent also reflects the best interests and safety of society today?"

Discussion?  Thoughts?  Ridicule?  I'm ready……... grin


T Beek how can we pick and choose which rights no longer apply? Let's be honest when I watch msnbc I believe the first amendment should probably be limited for those whack jobs. So while the first amendment was once  important wisdom of its time it's now time we start limiting speech to something the now reflects the best interest of society today

See I don't believe we need knee jerk reaction and removal of rights from honest Americans. It's truly tragic when some nut picks up a gun and decides to kill innocent people. But I don't believe the proper response to the tragic event is to punish innocent people. It makes no more sense then taking cars from all people because some idiot drives drunk

Keith
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Moots
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« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2013, 10:39:49 AM »


Moots; Thank you for making my point for me, sorry you're so offended by it. Sincerely sorry.  Really, no kidding.


T B,
Just to clarify...As often is the case, you got it wrong!  I was not "offended" in the least.  For me to be offended, would require me to value you opinion, which I'm sorry, but I simply do not!

However, I simply enjoy pointing out the irony in the stark differences between what you practice and what you preach.   Wink

As for your deep, thought provoking quote....The Constitution isn't a gallon of milk.  The Founding Fathers were a pretty smart group...I'm sure if they would have thought it needed a "Best if used by" or "expiration" date, they would have included it.  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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T Beek
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2013, 11:57:43 AM »

Moots 'enjoys pointing out stark differences between what "I" practice and what I preach."   I dunno

Does he also care to provide an example of that curious statement?   Ahhhh, and the waiting begins again……….. Smiley

Keith, I don't recall anyone suggesting in any form of punishment per say, unless we are talking about the current availability of guns that some among us should be no where near.

My own position is this….just so all the assuming can end.  And I won't mind defending it with those who can do so in a civil manner.

As a former NRA member I've since cancelled that membership, and have advocated ever since for the registration of all the guns in the Country, including those 'unregistered' guns in my own possession.  With that registration comes paid LIABILITY INSURANCE….just in case…..

As a society, if we can do that with our vehicles, which are seldom used to purposely kill another, why can't it be done with firearms?  If we must register our vehicles, why not our guns?  If we can pass laws to prevent morons from driving, why not pass laws designed to keep nuts from their access, including their family member in way too many cases.  I say that if you want a gun, fine.  But you should prove yourself responsible enough to own it by registering it and paying for liability insurance in order to keep it.
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« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2013, 01:15:09 PM »

as an overview, driving is not constitutionally protected while being armed, is.  in addition, the rules on licensing, registration, insurance, etc. are state controlled.

one of the reasons i belong to the NRA is that they lobby to protect my constitutional right.  the more voices in the lobby, the better.  personal choice.

i am curious about the idea of universal registration.  what, exactly, would it accomplish.  near as i can remember, no country has ever confiscated/banned weapons without doing the universal registration first.  other than making it easier for the government to identify and take weapons, what would be the up side?

as for requiring insurance....haven't we had enough of that??  grin  i mean....it's working so well with health care.....

i am in favor of dealing with the issue of the mentally ill but  they need to be dealt with in all aspects of society, not just in weapons.  the last few that have gone off shooting people have stolen weapons from others.  thank the bleeding hearts that there are so many out on the streets.  time to reverse the trend of "mainstreaming" for things other than, but including, reduced violence.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2013, 05:00:13 PM »

T beek how is it anything but punishment when the government comes in and says you no longer can have something because someone else did something we don't like?  Sorry but I believe that you should have your rights until you do something to forfeit them. Just because a few nut jobs choose to kill I do not believe I should have to forfeit my rights

Keith
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sterling
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« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2013, 06:23:02 PM »

Bluebee, you are all time asking what Jesus would do. Let me ask you. What would Jesus do if he were to go into an abortion clinic? What would he do if he was invited to a man on man marriage? Or a woman on woman marriage? What would Jesus say about not letting kids pray to God, His Father in school? What would Jesus say about feeding people who will not work? How proud would Jesus be of the war on poverty program where women are encouraged to have a bunch of babies who don't know who there daddies are? I wonder what he would say about the President of the United States winning the Lie of the year award?
All of these things are promoted by the Democratic Party that you defend constantly and you bring him in when you think he can help you defend your cause. That's borderline blasphemy.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:35:59 PM by sterling » Logged
derekm
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« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2013, 04:08:14 AM »

Logical fallacies

My concern is that logic and facts have disappeared out public debate. Instead perceived motives of the speaker are all that is considered. Logical fallacies are the norm in debate.
 Once a society stops questioning the facts and logic behind a speech then it is just a mob that will do anything, by just relying on the labels that stuck on to persons and things.

 A reduction in lead pollution levels, this changes lead production , bullets are made of lead, lead is used in guns, therefore this a measure to stop guns.


A classic logical fallacy. Forget the labels

"Boiling frog"," thin end of wedge "
Are classic rhetorical  props for logical fallacies.

The American public is being disarmed because their ability to reason is being removed, By a constant bombardment of illogical rhetoric from all sides.

They won't know themselves which way to point their guns, should they ever need them.

Instead they will fire at labels stuck to targets by others, working to their own agenda.

Learn to identify logical fallacies.
Challenge the logic of the easy arguments fed to you by All politicians and media pundit.



Logic, liberal and. Left begin with an L therefore arguing to use logic must be left wing liberal.
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T Beek
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« Reply #129 on: December 16, 2013, 05:42:26 AM »

as an overview, driving is not constitutionally protected while being armed, is.  in addition, the rules on licensing, registration, insurance, etc. are state controlled.

one of the reasons i belong to the NRA is that they lobby to protect my constitutional right.  the more voices in the lobby, the better.  personal choice.

i am curious about the idea of universal registration.  what, exactly, would it accomplish.  near as i can remember, no country has ever confiscated/banned weapons without doing the universal registration first.  other than making it easier for the government to identify and take weapons, what would be the up side?

as for requiring insurance....haven't we had enough of that??  grin  i mean....it's working so well with health care.....

i am in favor of dealing with the issue of the mentally ill but  they need to be dealt with in all aspects of society, not just in weapons.  the last few that have gone off shooting people have stolen weapons from others.  thank the bleeding hearts that there are so many out on the streets.  time to reverse the trend of "mainstreaming" for things other than, but including, reduced violence.

I quit the NRA (over 20 years ago) upon discovering who they 'really' work for.  GUN and AMMO Manufacturers and suppliers.  Our alleged rights are their GREASE, that's all.

I'm not as certain that we have the constitutional protections as claimed.  I've 'tried' to have that discussion before (there wasn't a single taker).  

I maintain that with the implementation of our military, the 2nd became irrelevant, meaning that its intended purpose had been removed.  America has no citizen 'militias' right now, does it?  Whenever a militia pops up, we all know what happens to them, don't we?  This is a 'moot'  grin point for the same reason IMO.  

Again I challenge 'anyone' to prove this theory wrong.  Go out and form a militia and see what happens.  See if you are 'really' protected by anything, especially the 2nd Amendment.  Try it…even once.

The 'real' issue with lead IMO; is all those folks 'fearfully' buying up bullets because they believe 'someone' is coming for their guns (and bullets?).  Its called "supply and demand" and the suppliers have all the fearful gun owners at their mercy, thanks to the NRA.  With all those guns, one would reasonably think it would lesson all that fear, but evidence (in these very pages) suggests the opposite.  

And the more we talk (assist the spread of NRA propaganda) about the alleged 'limits' of lead, guns or ammo the more 'some' will want to buy.  Its a crazy cycle and its course is absolutely insane, but also very understandable.  

I've got a couple hard case Vet buddies, who between them likely have well over a million rounds and 'still' complain they don't have enough, the price is too high or they can't even find any ammo anymore.  When I explain that their purchases likely adds to the problem, all they can do is hang their heads and agree.  

After all, Its just basic economics.  FEAR always sells, always creates profits.

As for insuring and registering guns I get your point but fail to grasp the logic kathyp.  I'm not fond of the Insurance Industry either, however, LIABILITY INSURANCE to own a dangerous weapon is a FAR CRY from the 'health' insurance debacle we have.  The comparisons make no sense to me.

I have no doubt that If guns were registered and INSURED (like our vehicles) it would bring down the number of shooting victims.  A stolen gun would not only be traceable back to the owner, whether responsible for a committed crime or not, and the owner could be charged and jailed 'if' neglect was involved.

If Junior decides to steal Mommy's gun and take it school to kill a few classmates and himself, Mommy could (should?) be charged convicted and jailed for her part, whether that be failing to have LIABILITY Insurance or just being stupid by allowing easy access to guns.  If Mom has no insurance or the gun wasn't registered…well then she'd be looking at real time in the slammer due to her own neglect.  

I like the 'IDEA" of accountable, responsible gun owners, don't you?   If there is another way I'm open to it.

Hey,,,,THANKS….now this was FUN.

Oh, oh…almost forgot.   It was n't 'bleeding hearts' that released the mentally ill unto the streets, that was Saint Ronnie Ray-Gun  grin  LOOK IT UP.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:23:29 AM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #130 on: December 16, 2013, 05:45:35 AM »

Bluebee, you are all time asking what Jesus would do. Let me ask you. What would Jesus do if he were to go into an abortion clinic? What would he do if he was invited to a man on man marriage? Or a woman on woman marriage? What would Jesus say about not letting kids pray to God, His Father in school? What would Jesus say about feeding people who will not work? How proud would Jesus be of the war on poverty program where women are encouraged to have a bunch of babies who don't know who there daddies are? I wonder what he would say about the President of the United States winning the Lie of the year award?
All of these things are promoted by the Democratic Party that you defend constantly and you bring him in when you think he can help you defend your cause. That's borderline blasphemy.

Based on what we know;  He'd accept them all with tolerance, compassion and LOVE.  That's my Jesus  Smiley  To know him is to love him.

To the best of my knowledge the only time Jesus ever took a definitive side, he was on the side of the less fortunate, pretty much always.  He didn't think much of the MONEYED ELITE but LOVED them non-the- less..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:12:23 AM by T Beek » Logged

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derekm
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« Reply #131 on: December 16, 2013, 07:49:11 AM »

T beek how is it anything but punishment when the government comes in and says you no longer can have something because someone else did something we don't like?  Sorry but I believe that you should have your rights until you do something to forfeit them. Just because a few nut jobs choose to kill I do not believe I should have to forfeit my rights

Keith

Here we have the logical fallacy of false dichotomy. This type of fallacy uses an extreme level of the opponent argument, assert it is false/undesirable and then asserts explicitly or implicitly  all levels are are false/undesirable.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #132 on: December 16, 2013, 08:07:53 AM »

T beek how is it anything but punishment when the government comes in and says you no longer can have something because someone else did something we don't like?  Sorry but I believe that you should have your rights until you do something to forfeit them. Just because a few nut jobs choose to kill I do not believe I should have to forfeit my rights

Keith

Here we have the logical fallacy of false dichotomy. This type of fallacy uses an extreme level of the opponent argument, assert it is false/undesirable and then asserts explicitly or implicitly  all levels are are false/undesirable.

Well put derekm, well put.
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Moots
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« Reply #133 on: December 16, 2013, 08:12:08 AM »

T Beek and derekm....

Apparently every country gets at least one!  grin
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« Reply #134 on: December 16, 2013, 08:21:14 AM »

Great minds discuss IDEAS
Average minds discuss EVENTS
Small minds discuss PEOPLE
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Moots
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« Reply #135 on: December 16, 2013, 08:44:39 AM »

Great minds discuss IDEAS
Average minds discuss EVENTS
Small minds discuss PEOPLE

...And what category do you put yourself in T Beek?
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #136 on: December 16, 2013, 08:50:39 AM »

T beek how is it anything but punishment when the government comes in and says you no longer can have something because someone else did something we don't like?  Sorry but I believe that you should have your rights until you do something to forfeit them. Just because a few nut jobs choose to kill I do not believe I should have to forfeit my rights

Keith

Here we have the logical fallacy of false dichotomy. This type of fallacy uses an extreme level of the opponent argument, assert it is false/undesirable and then asserts explicitly or implicitly  all levels are are false/undesirable.

OK so you don't like my black and white thinking. But when the opposite sides ultimate goal is to remove guns from US Citizens period the issue begs to be argued in black and white terms or to use your fancy words logical fallacy of false dichotomy. I believe the issue is black or white I want my right as given to me by the founding fathers period thats my argument

Keith
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« Reply #137 on: December 16, 2013, 09:13:06 AM »

Great minds discuss IDEAS
Average minds discuss EVENTS
Small minds discuss PEOPLE

...And what category do you put yourself in T Beek?

My posts, my words, as do yours, tell the world which 'category' we belong or often visit anyway.
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Moots
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« Reply #138 on: December 16, 2013, 10:05:45 AM »

Great minds discuss IDEAS
Average minds discuss EVENTS
Small minds discuss PEOPLE

...And what category do you put yourself in T Beek?

My posts, my words, as do yours, tell the world which 'category' we belong or often visit anyway.

...And you accuse others of dodging and refusing to answer DIRECT QUESTIONS! lau lau lau
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« Reply #139 on: December 16, 2013, 10:46:01 AM »

Quote
Logical fallacies

AH!  here is a term used by (pseudo)intellectuals as a substitute for "ya'll are stupid" (twang implied).

lets try this from the stupid point of view with connect the dots.  it's not a precise way of looking at things, but it can help us see trends.

there is a history in the world of government disarming populations as a method of control.  this would include the Brits considering disarming the American colony to control them.  this is a current history of govenrment disarming populations "for their own good" and it has long been encouraged by the UN with various agreements and treaties to that end.

we have, in this country, many leftists who do not believe that the general population should be allowed to have any type of firearm.  if they had their way, there would be no guns except in the hands of law enforcement and military.  interestingly enough (sarcasm implied) they tend to be the same people who are rabid environmentalists, anti hunting, global warming enthusiasts, etc.  

while we were sleeping, these same leftists created lovely agencies like the EPA which can help them accomplish all of their leftist dreams in the name of 'saving the environment'!

we now have the perfect storm of leftists being largely in charge, beefed up agencies like EPA, and a lawless admin that will do as it pleases by way of these agencies.  one of the things it would like to do is disarm, or at least make it as difficult as possible to be armed, the American people.  why?  maybe as part of the far left ideology, or to comply with it's god the UN, or ?

earlier in this admin, our own govenrment agencies went on an ammo buying spree.  the amount of ammo purchases was in excess of any anticipated need short of putting down an insurrection or invasion.  while this was going on, military outside war zones did not have ammo for training.  

it has not been lost on us, and certainly not on the leftists, that a gun without ammo is an expensive club.  there has been an argument made that, while gun ownership is legally protected, the right to have ammo is not.  so far, that argument has not flown, but you can bet it's not gone.

you think that we are to stupid to own guns are are being disarmed for our own good.  you bought that argument.  it's your country, so i don't care.  we do not buy it.  we do care. you can keep your logic.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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