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Author Topic: JFK - 50 years later: where do you stand TODAY?  (Read 1409 times)
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« on: November 21, 2013, 03:07:35 PM »

I mentioned in the Book and Audiobook forum that I'm reading Stephen King's 11-22-63 a mega-novel about a man's quest to stop Oswald after learning of a time portal. I can't say much more because I'm only 10 hours into 31 hours of this audiobook, but:

I am a conspiracy theorist on most things, I believe Oswald's own words when he said "I am a patsy!". Yes, I believe he was there, was shooting at JKF and likely shot JFK in the throat - I do not though believe he acted alone, but I have no solid theories on who were the accomplices.

All that said, one thing bothers me to this day. Oswald was perched on the 6th floor facing straight ahead was Houston Street. The JFK Limo traveled down Main, turned right onto Houston, turned left onto Elm and then JFK was morally wounded.

My point, with the motorcade moving at approx. 15mph on Houston, literally a sitting duck for direct frontal fire for Oswald, no shots were taken. No one could have missed and there was nowhere for the limo to escape from a shooter between Main and Elm. Why didn't Oswald use that opportunity to kill Kennedy rather than a shot where the limo was moving faster (about 25mph as it proceeded on Elm) and JFK was moving away from a guaranteed hit or hits.

Bill O'reilly in Killing Kennedy, who is a firm believer in the single shooter theory NEVER mentions that the car while on Houston was the perfect place to shoot toward.

A simple excuse, which witnesses attest to place Oswald in the building with ample time to be there BEFORE the President's car turned on to Houston from Main. I don't believe Oswald was rushing toward the window, grabbed up the rifle and locked in his aim AFTER the car turned onto Elm st. Sure it could have happened, but he wasn't an expert marksman to begin with, so jogging up 6 flights of stairs and grabbing and shooting the gun AFTER it already turned off Houston just doesn't make sense to me.

So, why didn't he shoot as the President drove straight at him? Why did he wait until the limo was nearly to the over-pass on Elm? I can only believe he was told by someone (no idea who) to wait until the car reached the spot where the gun-fires began. A place where a real sharp-shooter, very likely placed in the road-side catch-basin only 100ft from the fatal shot, or/and the infamous Grassy Knoll.

So did Oswald shoot Kennedy, I think so, did he ALONE shoot Kennedy, I can't rationalize it. Not because I don't think our government can't protect our presidents, look at Ronald Reagan who was extremely close to being killed that day. The secret service has learned a lot and plugged every conceivable hole in the president's defense, but it would be foolish to think in the future of this country that other attempts are thwarted by a perfect shield of security.

It's a sad fact that billions are spent to protect the most powerful man on Earth and the flimsiest hole in the system can get through. Modern Presidents do not exit the limo OUTSIDE of building except at the base of AirForce One which is always secluded, protected and running. Since Reagan, you won't see Presidents except for events well scanned ahead of time and incredible security at all entrances. The greatest exposure is always in political events, fund-raisers. They must be a Secret Service nightmare.

So back to the point. I was 5 when JFK was killed. I have few memories of it, I vividly remember the unloading of JFK from AF1 on TV and I remember Oswald being shot. I can't remember if the memories of the funeral march were original ones, or videos I saw in the short years following.

But I have heard/read everything from LBJ, the Mod, Castro, The Russians, even UFOs (yes, even UFOs) although even I don't believe that one. But we know a single shooter CAN change history, I just don't believe that in JFK's case, that one man acted alone.
 
Here is one map I found that shows the route and why I'm doubtful.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/DealeyPlaza-fr.svg/600px-DealeyPlaza-fr.svg.png
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 04:45:32 PM »

While I think there's a part of most everyone that loves a good conspiracy theory...Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one.  grin

Put me down in the LHO acted alone column.
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 06:05:06 PM »

Occam's razor truly is a sound principle - more so in a perfect world. But fair enough, 50 years and no one has broken the story of the century, so maybe there is no other story too break.

The Jim Garrison (main character in JFK movie) sadly was a whack-job. If there was a conspiracy, he surely had no idea what it was. He was more into "Outting" Clay Shaw as a homosexual than find the killer(s) of the President.

The Oliver Stone movie sadly did not mirror what history shows. Stone has a habit of making silk purses, often with less than a sow's ears. Although I enjoy listening to him on George Noory's Coasttocoastam show. Shame Stone is a better story teller than a historian.

                       ------------- change of topic - kinda ----------

About history, more so about time I guess. It came up today at the doctor's office: I said to the young, but sincerely kind Dr. assistant "Life is interesting, one day, and you never know when, you realize that your doctor is younger than you are!" I continued that it is a good thing, because doctors that are older may not be educated on the latest procedures, medicines, etc.

I continued that conversation with my doctor who told me a short story: he'd been working with one assistant over a decade, when she turned 40, he gave her a "happy 50th" birthday card. When asked why, he told her to enjoy her 40th, remember, how she felt, how life was, etc.. and again on her 50th, he gave her a "happy 60th" card - she remembered well the card from a decade before and she realized that things indeed had changed and likely would greatly change in the following 10 years.

His moral, if one need be gleaned - this may be as good as it gets, at some point life is DOWN-HILL from here and it's better to appreciate the small stuff than it is to sweat it. It was a good story, one I'll remember he took the time out to tell me.

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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 11:00:14 PM »

There was a show on the history channel last week that me and the wife watched. One of the profession shooters that NBC used back in the 60's to test the one shooter theory ( the only one that was able to make three shots in the amount of time was not convinced. he researched it for thirty years  until he found the smoking gun. will the first shot was by Oswald and did hit JFK and the Governor. the second shot hit the road. he did not make a third shot. the way the fatal shot was made was that in the following car with the secret service team was a man by the name Riddly or something like that. After the assignation he was never heard from and never spoken about in the Secret seervice. but with the release of national papers  he had found that a new weapon was being tried by the secret service. a weapon that was being used in Nam and they were having problems with. it was the new m-16. will back to the story. it was revealed that after the first shot and second shots. that Riddly was starting to move and grab the m-16 to respond and at the same instance the drive floored the gas and Riddly accidentally pulled the trigger. the round witch was a ballistic round went off and just missed the windshield of the car and struck JFK squarely in the back of the head causing the massive frontal hole. that is why when they X-rayed his skull they found so much fragments of the round and bones. It all ended in a big accidental shooting. JFK would have survived the throat shot. Riddly has never spoken about the Houston shooting and had to live with what happened. Maybe the secret service felt that sense Oswald had made the initial shot that no matter what he was the finall one responsible for every thing and that sense he was shot  before anything could come out that it was best to leave it alone for the agent had the guilt to live with for the rest of his life. the m-16 was taken out of the arsenal after that trip.

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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2013, 11:40:22 PM »

easy shots.  plenty of time.  crazy guy who'd been hanging out in Russia.  Training in Russia? 
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »

Dive.  Gonna have to catch that show. That's a new theory for me, indeed.


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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 02:41:04 PM »

I can't help thinking the stupidity of the Police Chief in Dallas who in a crowed hallway, feet from Oswald said "Our plans are to move him at 10 O'clock tomorrow morning (then) I don't foresee the public having an issue with that!" talk about putting you foot in your mouth.

I blame the FBI, who still had not had a law stating that killing the President is a federal offense. Besides that, the CIA wanted Kennedy cause it may be a Russian/Cuba matter, the FBI wanted Kennedy because his lifeless body was going to be traveling across the US and of course Dallas Police held on to Kennedy for every inch of notoriety they could milk.

Mean while, Ruby knew the exact moment to be there, or the people who sent Ruby to kill HIS FRIEND Lee Oswald. Whichever it was, it worked. Not one institution of power and laws had the for thought to sneak him out in the middle of the night, even a few hours could have made it so Ruby as out of place - he had receipts for (I believe) a cleaners or breakfast joint as recent as 15 minute prior to killing Oswald.

It is especially funny how conspiracy minded folk remember things different. I had always believed that Ruby died shortly after being arrested for killing Oswald, mind you I was a 5 year old and really didn't distrust my government yet, but in reality, he was convicted to death and died of natural causes nearly 3 years later. 50 years of repainting the same images often makes you forget what the original looked like before the first painting. Side-note: the Sistine Chapel paintings were fully painted over to "restore" the color and wonder of the Michelangelo's greatest work of art. This all happened from 180-1999 aprox. What is there today is likely a very wonderful and vibrant piece of art, and I'm sure it was necessary or it would have have been done, but people who go there today see nothing of his painting, it is encapsulated and to never be seen again.

That is how covering up history works.  Toss some bait in the water, see what gets nibble and feed us S#&T until we are satisfied with the answer. That was easy to do back when we trusted the government exponentially more than we do today. Mark Lane challenged the Warren Report and the JFK Assassination books have rolled out since. And yes I agree Americans want to believe a lone gunman killed JFK, to think a plot, especially if it involve powerful people in the government would destroy the leave it to Beaver years, and decapitate Camelot.

I'm about 15 hours into Stephen Kings fictional book 11-22-63, I've listened to hundreds of examples of how life wasn't the mess it is today, examples I can remember my own parents state over my life-time. I have no idea where the book is going, I see some twists that will make the modern day time traveler stay in 1963, but I can imagine horrific events that may cause him to jump forward, than back to correct other, more personal problem. It's a good book, but just a book. We all live in a linear time where evidence slate first to be released in 25 years was moved to 50 years and NOW 75 years - I can only assume they want anyone old enough to remember the events around 11-22-63 to be long dead before we see what the second investigation on these events: the Warren committee found Oswald likely acted alone, but in the 1970s, when I'm then a teen, I got to watch The House Select Investigation on Assassination found that "Likely there more than one gunman" Sounds like a conspiracy to me! I doubt we will see a third such investigation in our life, but our children and their children should be around when evidence that still is too sensitive to the Country will be revealed 2038 - just maybe, when it is all but ancient history, no more relative then Lincon to the students of this future date - maybe then our government willtell how a Coup d' etat killed the 35th President, rushing in the new leader with no resistance by the people.
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 09:59:10 PM »

I talked to my wife and found out the agents name was Hickky and the name of the show is:

JFK assination ( the smoking gun )

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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 12:25:49 AM »

My wife and I saw that show also.



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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 02:57:16 PM »

DRIVEMASTER 1963 -- I watched a black and white film clip many years ago that seems to show the shot that was fired accidentally by the security agent in the vehicle directly behind the president,s limo.And it also looks like the shot was fired just second,s before the driver lurched forward as did all the vehicles in the motorcade. Have never been able to locate another copy of that film.I have heard it was destroyed along with some other material?
My guess is only a very small group of people ever new the whole truth,and most are now dead or missing.As for myself i was working as electronic tech. at the Captain Shreve Hotel in Shreveport La. The cheers that went up from the engineering dept where i worked and the main kitchen which was just bellow my dept was deafening.I was in shock and could not believe what was happening.How can anyone fathom that much hate for a President of the United States of America?  Black, white,republican or Democrat.That my friends is one thing i will never understand!
And BEEMASTER, i cannot believe i am that much older than you,Ha you just never know huh
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2013, 05:40:04 PM »

I believe the kill shot was from the front based on physical evidence. The shot to the head displays two distinct features.
1. JFK's head snaps back- if the shot was from the back he would have gone forward.
2. The wound exploding forward and a piece of skull landing on the trunk are indicative of a frontal shot. Ever watch a water jug shot with a rifle? The results are the same.

Also, Several witnesses say there was a bullet hole in the windshield too but I haven't found any photo proving that.


Audio from the day -it is out there, seems to support 4 shots fired. Two sound the same the other 2 are different possibly indicating different positions relative to the recorder.

That's my take on it anyway.
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2013, 06:26:19 AM »

I've long 'believed' that it was the "Congressional, Industrial, Military Complex" that killed Kennedy, possibly with MOB assistance.  Both were big enemies of JFK, but for different reasons.  Well, maybe not so different since both involved $$$$$$$$, lots of $$$$$.  I also believe Oswald was the patsy he claimed to be, but far from innocent.

The fact that Kennedy was intent on extracting Americans from Laos and Vietnam and saw little point in escalating our involvement sealed his fate IMO.  What a different world we would have had if Kennedy had his way…..on just this one issue.  We very likely wouldn't have the Vietnam Memorial Wall with nearly 60,000 names etched into it.

What a waste……….. Cry

As for the 'shot' direction and subsequent head movement (s)?  Well…I've personally witnessed people being shot and let me tell you all……their bodies (heads) can twist in all sorts of directions when hit, and wind up in positions we might otherwise think impossible, regardless of the direction the bullet came from.
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 08:30:12 AM »

There's some tuff stuff to reply too here. Let's start from light to heavy.

I've seen what just do not match any close up of the Zapruder film in any way (around the critical frame 313) where it appears to me to be photoshopped of the driver turning to shoot Kennedy. The film is convincing, but does not match the original footage when over-layed, so I don't think the drive did anything but turn to look.

I have hunter friends, and I'm sure many of you here hunt and I'd probably be right if I said that if you shot a deer in the head that the head would move toward you upon impact - but humans are not deer, and our skeleton and cervical bones I think can throw the head in directions that appear impossible to what we think should happen.

None of that though changes my own belief that Oswald WAS shooting, likely did hit Kennedy in the throat area, but doubtfully shot the fatal shot we all see and hear in those famously written Oliver Stone Classic Words "Back and to the Left" I don't think they are credited to the real Jim Garrison - the attorney bringing Clay Shaw to court as a conspirator in the Kennedy Assassination - the ONLY Kennedy case "ever" in a real court room.

I finished the 11-22-63 Stephen King Book - I'll say, as with Bill O'reilly both writers believe in the lone gunman theory. I just wonder how man people does it take to make a "one gunman theory" pan out? Do we include the person who placed the PRISTINE BULLET on a stretcher that no one can prove either Kennedy or Connelly laid on. Or how about the Secret Service Guy wiping down the limo of all blood, brains and maybe bullets within minutes of pulling into the ER at Parkland. A police chief announcing the minute Oswald would be transfered, and how easily Ruby happened to be there to silence him. How about the funeral director who allowed the FBI to ink-up Oswald's hands so they could transfer his prints to the gun?

MY POINT - just because you MAY ONLY HAVE ONE GUN MAN SHOOTING is NOT the same as saying you don't have a conspiracy. But I don't believe the one gun man theory. I think Oswald wanted to be a historic name forever known for killing the president, then he found out that he wasn't alone, he likely saw a shot hit that he didn't fire and CLICK he knew they weren't doing this to SOLIDIFY the name OSWALD, they were much bigger than that, and he was going to be the patsy.

VOICE ANALYSIS from Oswald shows him to be truthful - more so, non-deceptive. Oddly he kept being marched before the press to give 30 second answers, which today can be tested and the conclusions (from what I have seen) Oswald was not being deceptive on most questions and truthful on others.

To many people, and more people today believe LBJ was more involved than ever before) would love to hear an audiotape recording "Well... it's a go.. Just make sure they don't hit my car by mistake!" that is the missing link that would blow apart the conspiracy and vindicate many theorists.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2013, 09:00:31 AM »

The "pristine" bullet question. 

Bullets can pass through flesh, even breaking bones along the way and still end up looking like they've never been through a rifle barrel.  It happens….often.

Of course in this case, that doesn't say it wasn't planted, only that its not a miracle to find a pristine bullet after it caused a death or injury.   Finding it on the gurney, now that is suspicious.
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2013, 01:06:30 PM »

Quote
The fact that Kennedy was intent on extracting Americans from Laos and Vietnam and saw little point in escalating our involvement sealed his fate IMO.

not so.  this is part of the myth of Kennedy built up later by the Kennedy clan. he had expanded our involvement and seemed poised, by his own statements, to do whatever it took to block the spread of communism.

Quote
What a different world we would have had if Kennedy had his way…..on just this one issue.  We very likely wouldn't have the Vietnam Memorial Wall with nearly 60,000 names etched into it.

perhaps.  more likely, communism would have spread quickly throughout asia, just as Kennedy feared it would.  the tragedy of the Vietnam war is not that it was fought, but that it was fought poorly.  that's the enduring tragedy of many wars.  read the writings of the former VC leaders.  they were done.  they had no more to throw at us.  Johnson tried to run the war from the WH with a bunch of loony leftist advisers.  the result was what it always is when this is the policy.

we may never know the truth, but one thing we do know is that Kennedy was not as popular in life as he became in death.  he would not have won his first election if not for daddy buying votes, and winning the 2nd was questionable.  he'd made a lot of mistakes and let a lot of people down all over the world.  Berlin was walled under him, many believe as a first test of his leadership ability.  he failed.  he mishandled the cuban missile crisis and it was only the Russians realizing that they could get concessions from us....and that this green kid might actually drop a bomb on cuba, that saved that one.

he really wasn't all that great.  Bobby was the one who might have made a decent president.  JFK was the default family choice, never the first choice.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2013, 03:29:43 PM »

    The program that divemaster refers to was shown down here last week. The inference was that the fatal shot came from a security person in a following car and that it was accidental. I still cannot come to grips with the coincidence of that shot missing all the other persons in the presidential car and surrounds. The theory also purported that the fatal bullet was a very different type to the one which passed through the presidents neck.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »

JFK wasn't perfect. I do not disagree. I will however always give him honor for 2 items:
1. He had the balls to publicly declare he would seek to end the reign of secret societies who would pervert government to suit their own desires. End the military industrial complex and foster disarmament.
2. Enable the Federal Government to print its own interest free currency.

Both of which were leading theories as to why he was assassinated.
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2013, 04:35:11 AM »

JFK wasn't perfect. I do not disagree. I will however always give him honor for 2 items:
1. He had the balls to publicly declare he would seek to end the reign of secret societies who would pervert government to suit their own desires. End the military industrial complex and foster disarmament.
2. Enable the Federal Government to print its own interest free currency.

Both of which were leading theories as to why he was assassinated.

 cheer  Ahhh, a student of history….at last.   Smiley  kathyp is confused (blinded by the Right?) regarding Kennedy's Vietnam, Berlin and Cuba, funny and sad she spreads these kind of 'beliefs' more reminiscent of Goldwater and the JBS (And a little of Joe, perhaps).  The truth is widely available for those 'truly' seeking it  Wink.  

I Don;t think there's ever been a perfect Pres….including Kennedy.  They are up against some powerful forces and they either adjust themselves accordingly or……….;;;;
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2013, 11:14:51 AM »

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The truth is widely available for those 'truly' seeking it 

it is and it doesn't come from little Teddy's rewrite of history. 
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2013, 05:38:52 AM »

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The truth is widely available for those 'truly' seeking it 

it is and it doesn't come from little Teddy's rewrite of history. 

Oh kathyp;  Who mentioned "Teddy" besides YOU?"  That's you're assumption (a particular/peculiar habit of yours Wink).  I'd recommend both McNamaras and Bundy's Memoirs (and can recommend others if 'really' interested), both were HAWKS and members of the Kennedy Cabinet who pushed him toward Military expansion and later spoke of his 'absolute resistance' to further involvement, especially Vietnam where as a young Congressman in 1951 he'd seen the effects of guerrilla war with the French. 

By the summer of 63 Kennedy was telling his closets aids and advisors, including a few Generals that he intended to get out of Vietnam but had to wait until 'after' he was reelected.  Despite the drumbeat from both the LEFT and RIGHT, Kennedy never sent ground troops into Vietnam.  The pressure to do so must have been enormous.

October 1963, JFK had Bundy issue NSA Memorandum 263, making official policy the withdrawal from Vietnam by the end of 65 and beginning by year end of 63.  (LOOK it up).

One day before the assassination Kennedy was overheard saying that "Vietnam was not worth another American Life"  Two day after the assassination LBJ was with S Vietnams Ambassador, Henry Cabot Lodge (whom Kennedy was planning on firing) and the rest as they say….is history, written with the blood of my brothers.

More than anything else Kennedy envisioned, desired a "world at peace" (something those who've experienced war often desire) and knew that the only way to obtain it was to control the Military, Congressional, Industrial Complex and the CIA who did its bidding. 

Little has changed…………..Fear (real and imagined) still Controls Policy Making.
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2013, 05:55:38 PM »

As I understand history (obviously written by those who killed JFK) Johnson was made an ambassador by JFK so that Johnson was NEVER in the States. Sweet deal if true. If you can't stand your VP, what better way to get rid of him than to send him on an endless working vacation around the world.

Johnson who knew why he was abroad so much hated JFK for the fact, giving conspiracy buffs yet another reason LBJ would want Kennedy whacked - as if he didn't already have 50 other reasons boiling in his head.

I know LBJ was a serious ladies man, literally meaning women were tripping over him - my mother never saw the appeal, of course "POWER" is enough reason for some people to fall head over heels for a politician, or the wealthy or anyone with presume great influence.
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2013, 06:19:09 PM »

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKPOF-135-015.aspx

LOL  you use McNamara as a source!!  that's telling.

you may start with the above speech since you seem not to know much about what Kennedy thought about Vietnam and our involvement.  i trust that you have at least rudimentary skills in research and can move on from the above.

Quote
That's you're assumption (a particular/peculiar habit of yours


no idea where this came from little teddy was one of the primary re-writers of Kennedy history.  why would i not mention him?  i'm thinking the assumption was on your part....

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2013, 07:08:14 PM »

Yeah, I didn't think you had read them...
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 07:25:56 PM »

way to address the points.  i know.  you can't.  you might at least humor us and try.

stay away from sharp objects.  you don't want to accidentally let the air out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2013, 08:50:25 PM »

No one can know for sure how JFK would have handled Vietnam. We can guess based upon some of the things he publicly said, and take into account the secondhand info from those who knew him...
I place the escalation and failure on LBJ.
Kathy I can't get your link to work on my mobile device, but I will watch it when I get home. Here's an article I found-
 http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1106/Would-John-F.-Kennedy-have-pulled-US-out-of-Vietnam
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 05:28:57 AM »

way to address the points.  i know.  you can't.  you might at least humor us and try.

stay away from sharp objects.  you don't want to accidentally let the air out.

What points?  Did you make a point?   laugh laugh  

Yep…see what I mean?…….Are you capable of addressing anothers point of view without the insults?  Or is it just easier to ignore the question that way rather than engage in any discussion that may upset you or challenge your viewpoint?    Show me  rolleyes what and where you've ever actually addressed ANYTHING I've presented.  

Your comments remind me why I left High School and why I generally ignore you.  Its too easy to be a 'tough guy' (or girl) on the internet  grin
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 06:00:22 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 10:00:22 AM »

T, you make me laugh.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2013, 02:05:24 PM »

T, you make me laugh.

Good  cool because making one laugh while providing 'food for thought' (which is more often than not my intent), is always better than making one angry. 

That said, I don't believe I have any power, control or responsibility over how anyone 'reacts' to what is posted.
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