Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
December 21, 2014, 11:30:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: New keeper needs help  (Read 3203 times)
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« on: February 01, 2006, 05:14:56 PM »

 huh
Hello, My father was a beekeeper for over 5 years. I helped him many many times with the hives as did my husband.  We were very involved and actively worked WITH him on the hives. HOwever, we lost dear dad in December and now my husband and I want to fulfill his wishes and keep the apiary up, running, and efficient just as he had it. There are extensive records on each hive and the history of his orders/etc so we are set with things like that.
However, on the recent hive inspection (reached a 70 degree day here and quickly did inspection of hives), we found that 2 hives (with double hive bodies) had begun to pull comb in an odd way that we haven't seen before. THey were seeming to attach the bottom frame boards to the bottom of the top frames.  There was plenty of honey left for them for the winter and there was a large cluster in the center of the hive midway up.  There were numerous bees and numerous larvae.  We found nothing invasive in the hive to cause distress.  Just can't figure out what would cause them to pull the comb odd like that>  We use plastic coated foundations( for spinning honey), and wax coated foundations for cutcomb, in wooden frames.  The hives that I am asking about were not cutcomb hive frames.  I am at a loss as to what would cause them to pull comb like that. We literally had to scrape it off in order to open and inspect the hive...wish dad were here to ask and teach, but i have joined this forum now for helpful advise. We are new beekeepers, but with some labor experience and field experience, however dad handled all the treatment information and could never begin to share all we'd need to know in what little time we had.  
Please feel free to add any advice on what, why and how to avoid this problem in the future.  They were not happy bees when we had to remove this and i know it took a lot of their energy and time which has now been wasted. OR...is there something I should have done different???
Please helP! Smiley
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
Jay
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 471


Location: Concord, MA


« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 05:56:44 PM »

Do you mean that they have attached the two deep hive bodies together with burr comb between the bottom bars of the upper frames and the top bars of the lower frames? If this is what you mean, then don't worry, it is quite normal. Some beekeepers remove this burr comb, like you did,  and some just leave it in place. Cheesy
Logged

By the rude bridge that arched the flood
Their flag to Aprils breeze unfurled
Here once the embattled farmers stood
And fired the shot heard round the world
-Emerson
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6437


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2006, 06:06:16 PM »

I read your post the same way Jay did and agree, it is not uncommon for bees to draw burr comb if there is more than 3/8" of space.  Depending on your hive bodies and frame rail depth,  it appears you have enough space for them to build a burr comb "bridge" from one super to the other.

It sounds like they are quite healthy and drawing comb,  make sure they have plenty of room and don't get to over crowded and get the impulse to swarm.

BTW,  please add your location to your profile,  it help us respond to questions when we know the climate/season you are in.
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


TwT
Senior Forum
Global Moderator
Galactic Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3384


Location: Walker, La.

Ted


« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2006, 07:37:06 PM »

I agree with them two above, all my hives make some burr comb between the hive bodies and the supers, I just scrap it off and collect it to melt down later. I also use pierco 1 piece frames and foundation, this burr comb seems to be where the queen lays all the drones, I do a few mite counts when they are capped. goodluck!!
Logged

THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
Amateurs built the ark,
Professionals built the Titanic
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 06:28:19 AM »

Thank you all so much for the help! Cheesy  I was really at a loss for that one. Glad to know it is normal. Yes, they were pulling comb almost as if attaching one hive body frames to another's.  Weird looking but what you say makes complete sense and i do recall dad mentioning it in the past but not able to actually "see" what he spoke of.  SO, that makes me feel much much better.
We do keep every scrap piece of wax. Dad had made a solar melter for the wax and it comes out in 3 lb squares after mother nature does her thing.  It is good to know that we can use this also for our wax collection.
I was just so afraid that i had done something wrong by removing it but  knew it couldnt' stay either.  
Dad left us some pretty well kept, well tended, and numerous hives (we have 17 at his home location and 11 more here at mine house but it is all under the same business).  
So since the comb situation is normal, I will keep an eye for signs of swarming when weather heats up.  It is now supposed to snow here this weekedn so I won't be doing it anytime soon.  
I did a mite "roll" check on some of the bees we collected while inspecting and out of his 17 thee were 6 of them with varrora mites. (I collected the bees, did the "ether" roll, used handglass and then microscope to verify the discovery of a mite)>  At our home we have 3 out of 11 that showed a mite. (our colllection of mites came from bees from each hive we got at least 20 for each hive ...some already dead, some not).  NOw, my question, since it is too cold to open the hive and too cold to treat with fgmo and thymol cords (besides necatr flow isn't too far away)...CAN i put confectionary sugar at the entrance hives or would this entice them out into the cold????I know it helps with grooming and could be headstart to mite control for me....any suggestions?
You guys are great. I was so worried that i wouldn't be able to get and find information and i'd end up losing the bees. For some reason you become kinda attached to the little things. YOu guys have been a shelter in a storm of confusion....thanks so much once again!>
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6437


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 08:07:07 AM »

Hard to tell from your discription the extent of your mite problem.  But if you want to treat now,  oxalic acid drip (if they are still clustered) or oxalic acid vapor (if they are not clustered) would be my suggestion.  Also, if they are strong enough, you can also wait until it warms up a little to get into them and treat.   Just don't go too long if you have mites.  I've seen claims that for each mite in the Spring,  you will have 200 in the Fall if not treated.

Quote from: atthelake22
.CAN i put confectionary sugar at the entrance hives or would this entice them out into the cold????I know it helps with grooming and could be headstart to mite control for me....any suggestions?


The sugar won't lure them out in the cold nor do I think it will do anything for your mites.  I believe for that to work,  you have to pull out every frame and dust all the bees.
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Jack Parr
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 261

Location: Lockport, LA


« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 08:17:35 AM »

The confectionary sugar should be applied/sprinkled on all the frames with all the bees on the comb, one by one, both sides and is quite a chore. Two hands are not really enough to do this gracefully. Better to be two people, one pulling and holding the frame and the other sprinkling the sugar. The sugar does not sprinkle readily and I used a strainer with a fairly fine mesh, shaking it constantly. A flour sifter would be better IMO. Best to try different methods prior to starting to see how -  to -  do best.

The idea is to coat the bees with the sugar and let them groom each other thereby dislodging the mites, making them drop through the screen bottom boards? The bees will eat the sugar and it is a feast for them, or, so I observed when I did this and I really did not see any mites suddenly drop onto the slide out boards placed under the screen bottoms in my hives.

I also did the liquid sucrocide treatment. That treatment requires a sprayer and the idea is once again to coat, lightly, all the bees, comb, brood, pollen, honey, frames with the liquid. This work is best done with four hands also. However warm weather is required. There is some info posted on the forums, this one, and others, about sucrocide treatments. The sucrocide is a Biochemical Miticide and is suppose to be safe as opposed to synthetic chemicals? Furtermore, spraying is easier than sprinkling dry sugar.  DO NOT GET CARRIED AWAY WITH THE SPRAY!!!

There again I cannot say how effective this sucrocide treament was. I didn't notice an increase mite drop either.

In any event warm weather is required, for both treatments, because doing a two deep box setup, going through all the frames requires some time and you will not want to overly expose your hives to the elements if there is brood in them. DO NOT CHILL THE BEES PLEASE!!!

Personally, I am chemical free, so far, but I don't have much experience to go on so time will tell.

You should remove all non wanted comb  from your boxes, frames, wherever,  periodically to stay ahead of the bees who pretty much like to do things their way, sometimes. Keeping the brood box frames, 10 of them, close and tight against each other helps in burr comb prevention I have found.

Hope this helps.    Jack
Logged
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 02:38:09 PM »

Thanks so much everyone for the help on the comb and the confectionary sugar.  I know dad used the fgmo fogger and thymol soaked cords int he fall after all the edible honey had been collected (for human consumption)> however, I didn't know if using one of those methods was acceptable during our cold February weather that is coming. Glad we got the inspections done before the weather turned cold again.  However, and i know this is reallllyyyy amateur but can the mineral oil used cause condensation and moisture build up inside the hive body? I would think this would cause some problems during cold weather.  HOwever, I know there are other methods for treated varrora mites.  Therefore, should I go ahead and use the other methods (Spraying, patties, etc) now....or leave the lids shut during this cold spell and come back in March and fog?? I know for a fact dad fogged in September each year and I have the intervals and durations.  Didn't know if this method could be used in spring too.  We also have used the mite strips in the entranceway with the gell.  Just curious as to if it is time or not....should i just wait?
   ANd thank you all  for the information on the burr comb. When I saw that word it came to me. I have the book I have read about in your forum called Beekeeping for Dummies and although my husband has had a lot of field experience with it, there is soooo much to know. So thanks for your responses and this forum.
  the lake's
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13967


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 08:46:51 PM »

>I know dad used the fgmo fogger and thymol soaked cords int he fall after all the edible honey had been collected (for human consumption)> however, I didn't know if using one of those methods was acceptable during our cold February weather that is coming. Glad we got the inspections done before the weather turned cold again.

Just cords?  Did he fog with FGMO?

> However, and i know this is reallllyyyy amateur but can the mineral oil used cause condensation and moisture build up inside the hive body?

On a warm day when the bees are flying you can fog with FGMO.  I wouldn't do it when the bees are clustered and not flying.

> I would think this would cause some problems during cold weather. HOwever, I know there are other methods for treated varrora mites.

There are a few.

>Therefore, should I go ahead and use the other methods (Spraying, patties, etc)

Spraying sucrocide?  I don't know of any patties for Varroa.  The grease patties are for Tracheal mites.  The most effective treatment to really knock down the mites that I've seen is Oxalic acid vapor.  It's what most would call a "soft" chemical, in that it already exists in honey and it's not an insecticide per se.

> now....or leave the lids shut during this cold spell and come back in March and fog??

If you think you have a lot of mites I'd fog them once a week IF the weather is warm enough for them to fly, no matter what month it is.  FGMO requires constant treatments to knock down very many mites.

> I know for a fact dad fogged in September each year and I have the intervals and durations.

Typical is once every two weeks until summer and every week until winter sets in.

> Didn't know if this method could be used in spring too.

When the bees are flying.  Yes.

> We also have used the mite strips in the entranceway with the gell.

What kind of gel?  What kind of strips?

> Just curious as to if it is time or not....should i just wait?

If you intend to rely on FGMO fog then I would fog once a week as long as the bees are flying and don't fog if they aren't.

But you really need to sort out what you are doing.  I don't know what the "gel" and strips are but you may not want to be doing too many things. Most things that kill mites are hard on the bees.  If you make it too hard on the bees you'll have problems.  Also you don't want poison building up in the hive.  Apistan and Checkmite strips should never be left in longer than the directions say and they should be in the middle of the brood nest.

Most people doing FGMO, don't do Apistan or checkmite.  Most people doing Oxalic acid don't need to do anythying else.  Most people doing small cell don't treat at all.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 03:33:43 AM »

Sorry, you are right the gel is for the tracheal mites. I was getting my pests mixed up in an attempt to get answers on the varrora I had skipped a page of notebook and saw the tracheal mite information.
Sorting out everything is the process i am at now. It is so hard to just step in and then take over and be resonsible for the whole herd of 25 hives. The patties I spoke of were for tracheal mites too. The strips I spoke of dad had used back in 2003 and I don't have any on hand, plus we never installed them for him so I assume he went with other methods but has the Apistan in stock.  
I believe the gel we used for that was Parson's Gold, ever used it? curious
Well, thanks so much! hope you know how help ful you have been.
Sure I will be back with more questions!
By the way the acid you spoke of, any bad sides for the bees???
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13967


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 06:08:36 AM »

>I believe the gel we used for that was Parson's Gold, ever used it?

No.  I don't treat for Tracheal mites.  Actually Now that I have them on natural cell I don't treat for anything.  I use greae patties once back when I didn't know what was killing my bees.  It was Varroa mites that were the problem at the time.

>By the way the acid you spoke of, any bad sides for the bees???

When I used it, I used it evaporated and when it was the correct does I saw no ill effects on the bees.  Finsky uses it in syrup and says treating more than once is hard on them.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2006, 06:20:30 AM »

How come you don't treat for tracheal? Is it because of your location?
I am getting the feeling that I don't need to do allthis treating stuff except varroa mites....is that right?
I will be using the fgmo fogger and thymol cords this year to get the mites under control. From there is there a way that I can prevent having to use treatments in the future years???
Also, looking at past entries to learn more about this area. Thanks so much once again.
Love this forum it is soooo helpful!
the lakes cheesy
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
gsferg
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56

Location: Whitefield, Maine


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2006, 09:21:38 AM »

Quote
I did a mite "roll" check on some of the bees we collected while inspecting and out of his 17 thee were 6 of them with varrora mites. (I collected the bees, did the "ether" roll, used handglass and then microscope to verify the discovery of a mite)> At our home we have 3 out of 11 that showed a mite. (our colllection of mites came from bees from each hive we got at least 20 for each hive ...some already dead, some not).


I can't tell from your description for sure, but it sounds like you're collecting about 20 bees from a hive, some dead already, to perform your ether roll. If this is the case, you're not getting a good sample.

The idea behind an ether roll (or sugar roll) is to get a large enough sample of LIVE NURSE bees so you can extrapolate the results to a rough percent level of mite infestation in your hive. With 20 bees some of which are already dead, you're not getting useful results. For one thing, you won't find any mites on dead bees!

Typically people use about 300 bees (roughly 1/2 cup, the recommendation is to collect a sample, kill them, and then count them, then collect that same volume of bees for subsequent tests) obtained from a brood comb- with a little practice, you can "scoop" `em off the bottom of the frame or off the face of the comb. These are mostly nurse/house bees, which mites seem to prefer.

Personally, I'd do a sugar roll- it's just as easy as the ether roll, doesn't kill the bees, and is every bit if not more effective at dislodging mites as ether is. Then count your mites and divide that number by the number of bees you collected them from. For example, you sampled 300 bees and found 20 mites:   20 / 300 = 0.067 mites per bee or roughly a 7% mite infestation level i.e., 7% of your bees have one or more mites on them. This would be a level to be concerned about in my humble opinion.

Interpreting your results is a whole nuther matter, and how you choose to treat is entirely up to you, but regardless, you really need to get a good handle on your mite population and how it's changing.

Here's a good site describing a sugar roll:

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/pages/publicationD.jsp?publicationId=347

Good luck!

George-
Logged

"So long, and thanks for all the fish"
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13967


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 12:59:13 PM »

>How come you don't treat for tracheal? Is it because of your location?

I only treated for tracheal mites once back when my bees started dying and I hadn't figure out it was Varroa.  Tracheal mite resistance is easy to breed for.  If everyone quit treating for it today there would soon be no problem.  I raise queens.  I don't want bees that are not resistant and if I treat how will I know if they ARE resistant?

>I am getting the feeling that I don't need to do allthis treating stuff except varroa mites....is that right?

You need to pay attention to your bees.  If you see a lot of "K" wing bees you need to get your queens from somewhere different, or raise your own.  You need to monitor the Varroa.  Even if you use the conventional treatments they often fail.  Apistan resistance is widespread.  If you don't monitor you won't know if what you are doing is working.  If you don't monitor, you don't know if you even NEED to treat.  When dealing with mites FACTS are a very useful tool.

>I will be using the fgmo fogger and thymol cords this year to get the mites under control. From there is there a way that I can prevent having to use treatments in the future years???

From my experience, natural or small cell size is the onlyl method I've seen to prevent needing treatments.  Varroa resistant bees will help too.  Finding local survival stock would be the best, on natural sized cells.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Jack Parr
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 261

Location: Lockport, LA


« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2006, 07:07:47 AM »

How do ya'll collect 300 bees and put them into a mason jar?
Logged
gsferg
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56

Location: Whitefield, Maine


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2006, 08:52:09 AM »

Quote
How do ya'll collect 300 bees and put them into a mason jar?


Well the standard method is to get yourself a pint jar and collect about a half cup or so of bees, shake them down to the bottom of the jar, and mark the level with a magic marker or piece of tape. Then kill the bees (with alcohol or ether) and count them. Then when you take more samples, just scoop up about the same number of bees and you're all set.

It isn't so important that you have exactly 300 bees, but it is important that you know about how many bees you have. Whether it's 250 bees or 350 bees doesn't really matter. To get a good "roll" you don't want too many bees in the jar, to get a good sample you don't want too few bees either.

Me, I just collected a bunch of already dead bees from a recent deadout and counted them. Don't pack `em into the jar, fluff `em up a bit- live bees take up more space than already dead ones do.

George-
Logged

"So long, and thanks for all the fish"
atthelake22
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 46


Location: Chesapeake, Ohio

Pausing to give thanks


« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2006, 09:04:35 AM »

I am reading adn keeping close notes on all the great advice, and i thank you so much.  Wish dad was here to ask but it means the world to have knowledgable beekeepers to help me out. I so want to be successful at this for he worked so hard to get it up, running, efficient, and wanted it to continue for us. Wish me luck and see you in here soon i am sure.
Sincerely
patty
Logged

"...so shines a good deed in a weary world" dahl
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13967


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2006, 09:50:01 AM »

I'd just roll them powdered sugar instead of the ether or alcohol.  I can't see killing the bees.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
gsferg
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56

Location: Whitefield, Maine


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2006, 12:01:05 PM »

Quote
I'd just roll them powdered sugar instead of the ether or alcohol. I can't see killing the bees.


Doh! I just reread my post and decided it sure sounded like I was a) collecting dead bees to do mite tests and b) advocating killing bees to do it.

Not!

I was only describing a method of figuring out how to know how many bees you got in a jar.. do it once, count them, and then fill the jar to that line for subsequent tests.

I'm quite opposed to killing bees simply to roll them for mites. Powdered sugar is in fact better as dislodging mites than ether and doesn't kill them. I read somewhere that powdered sugar gets 88-89% of the mites off the bees and ether is in the low-80's.

George-
Logged

"So long, and thanks for all the fish"
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.329 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page Today at 07:01:44 PM
anything