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Author Topic: 7 frames in a 8 frame  (Read 1863 times)
dprater
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« on: November 09, 2013, 06:57:00 PM »

My wonderful 80 year old beek mentor GAVE me some 8 frame medium supers but they have metal spacers that make them 7 frames supers. They have not had bees in them for years. I've cleaned them up and put in new foundation.

He said it gives you a little wider cone and makes upcapping easier. Is this a good set up to use,  and what problems if any will I encounter?

dan
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Anybrew
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 08:05:25 PM »

I have learnt that 7 frames work the best in 8 Frame full depth supers. Big fat combs because of the extra space and much easier to extract.  The only way to go for me.


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Alan
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 10:06:46 PM »

that sounds intriguing.  i may have to try it out.
any downside?
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Anybrew
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 12:08:45 AM »

Not that I have found,perhaps it makes the combs heavy. But so much easier to extract.

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Moots
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 12:21:37 AM »

that sounds intriguing.  i may have to try it out.
any downside?

Other than the obvious of you lose a frame of honey per box?...

This is a fairly common pratice, 7 frames in an 8 frame box, or 9 frames in a ten frame box.  Personally, I've never tried it.  I use 8 frames and have never had any uncapping issues, therefore really don't see the advantage of this method.  To me, it adds work with no real advantage.  You either need to add rails to keep your spacing right or use a tool each time to assist with getting the spacing right.  I prefer to just make sure my frames are all tight and centerd in the box.  
If you do decide to go that route, I think you need to wait until you have comb drawn out before reducing from 8 to 7 frames.  I want to say I've heard if you go to the increased spacing with only foundation in your frames, it will cause problems.  
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Jim 134
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 01:38:44 AM »

that sounds intriguing.  i may have to try it out.
any downside?

Other than the obvious of you lose a frame of honey per box?...

This is a fairly common pratice, 7 frames in an 8 frame box, or 9 frames in a ten frame box.  Personally, I've never tried it.  I use 8 frames and have never had any uncapping issues, therefore really don't see the advantage of this method.  To me, it adds work with no real advantage.  You either need to add rails to keep your spacing right or use a tool each time to assist with getting the spacing right.  I prefer to just make sure my frames are all tight and centerd in the box.  
If you do decide to go that route, I think you need to wait until you have comb drawn out before reducing from 8 to 7 frames.  I want to say I've heard if you go to the increased spacing with only foundation in your frames, it will cause problems.  

 applause applause If you do not do this you may get all kinds of burr comb.







                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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dprater
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2013, 05:06:11 AM »

In my search for an answer I found this from Michael Bush. He was talking about spacing in the brood chamber but this should apply here to I think. What he says is: when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular.

I guess this is what Moots and Jim are talking about.

Thanks for replys

dan

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Joe D
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2013, 09:59:41 AM »

In the ten frame super, and should be same in the eights, you will get more honey with one less frame.  They build the comb out more.  I would still have the brood chambers with the proper amount of frames eight or ten.  Good luck to you and your bees.




Joe



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Moots
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2013, 10:23:02 AM »

In the ten frame super, and should be same in the eights, you will get more honey with one less frame.  They build the comb out more.  I would still have the brood chambers with the proper amount of frames eight or ten.  Good luck to you and your bees.

Joe,
I understand that they build the frame out more, and I understand that you'll get more honey "per frame"...but the fact remains, you're sacrificing a frame to get there.

I'm curious if anyone has actually ever done some comparisons and proved the "more honey" theory, or is it maybe just a perception of "more honey"....focusing on those big fat frames and not the fact that there are fewer of them?

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Vance G
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 11:46:39 AM »

Combs are drawn best closely spaced.  Personally I like drawing combs with 11 shaved to fit in a ten frame box.  After you have the resultant fully drawn straight combs, it is faster to handle and extract fewer frames that weigh more per each.  I routinely run 8 frames in a ten frame extracting super.  You lose nothing in honey volume and spend less time extracting.   
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OldMech
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 07:17:39 PM »

Combs are drawn best closely spaced.  Personally I like drawing combs with 11 shaved to fit in a ten frame box.  After you have the resultant fully drawn straight combs, it is faster to handle and extract fewer frames that weigh more per each.  I routinely run 8 frames in a ten frame extracting super.  You lose nothing in honey volume and spend less time extracting.  

   Exactly...  the "SPACE" in the hive doesnt change.. YES, you are minus one frame, but the SPACE is still the same. The bees draw the comb out further to fill that space and maintain their "bee" space between the frames...   So in effect, you lose the space nce filled by foundation, cappings etc from one of the frames gaining a wee bit...
  I looked into it a lot, and it is a fact that you "can" get more honey minus one frame... but as moots was saying.. is it worth the trouble for the 1/8th of a pound of honey you get extra?...    The true advantage I have seen, is in ease of handling and uncapping.. One less frame to uncap and extract. The comb is wider, making it VERY easy to uncap... so...   were back to methodology and convenience...  if its worth the spacing brackets or spacing tool, and the time to use/install them to you, then it WORKS for you!!!!

   From all I have read and seen.. the best method is to run 11 frames in the brood boxes and 9 in the supers... maybe one day I will get around to trying that...    For now, ten frames in ten frame boxes is working well as MY method   shocked
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merince
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 09:30:25 AM »

The only issue I see is getting the bees to draw the combs straight. You may need to get the frames drawn in a different box, as the extra spacing sometimes causes the bees to get inventive. Once the comb is drawn, I see no issues.
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OldMech
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 09:34:17 AM »

I believe most guys/gals put ten frames in until they are drawn, THEN space them to 9.
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Vance G
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 11:25:30 AM »

I find the built in spacers a pita.  The frames get glued in.  They are hard to clean and they are expensive.  An eyeball and gauge with your thumb is a lot easier. 
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Jim 134
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 07:45:25 PM »

Joe,
I understand that they build the frame out more, and I understand that you'll get more honey "per frame"...but the fact remains, you're sacrificing a frame to get there.

I'm curious if anyone has actually ever done some comparisons and proved the "more honey" theory, or is it maybe just a perception of "more honey"....focusing on those big fat frames and not the fact that there are fewer of them?
Moots...
 I see you missed one of the biggest reasons why commercial beekeepers put in one less frame in the boxes it so that it will uncapped easier (fewer low spots) when going through an automatic  uncapped. You must remember they will have a capping spinner to get the honey out of the capping so while it does save time and labor for them if you can count that.  There is little to no honey lost.





                                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
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10framer
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2013, 08:10:51 PM »

i nailed many 9 frame spacers into honey supers way back when.  it makes uncapping much easier.  if you are extracting hundreds of supers a day it's worth it, if you'll never have more than a dozen honey supers it's not worth the expense. 
don't run them in brood boxes. 
i don't think you get less honey per super but i don't think you get a lot more either.
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edward
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2013, 04:00:36 AM »

If you harvest honey with a beeblower if is easier to blow out the bees if you don't have a box full of frames.

The missing frame makes it a lot easier to blow the bees of the frames.

mvh Edward  tongue
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ugcheleuce
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2013, 06:02:11 AM »

I'm curious if anyone has actually ever done some comparisons and proved the "more honey" theory, or is it maybe just a perception of "more honey"....focusing on those big fat frames and not the fact that there are fewer of them?

Well, we can calculate it, in theory.  If we assume that there will be 1 x beespace at the ends of the box, and 1.5 beespace between frames, then we can calculate how much space in the box is taken up by "empty space" and therefore what the theoretical maximum amount of honey would be.  You can adjust the assumptions in an Excel spreadsheet and see how it plays out.  But essentially (if beespace is 7 mm) an 7-framer will have 10.5 mm more room for honey than an 8-framer.  Don't forget also that the midrib of the comb is 2.5 mm thick, so for every frame less, you save an additional 2.5 mm of "honeyless comb".

However, the above calculation fails to take into account the loss of cell space due to the fact that the bees change the angle of the cells to compensate for the added weight of the honey in them.  Perhaps as much as a full row of cells at the bottom (and possibly also at the top) of each frame will be wasted in the process.  So imagine the frame being 5 mm less tall than it actually is.  In a Langstroth super frame, that would reduce the one-side comb area from 0.052948 m2 to 0.050813 m2 (a reduction of between 0.04% and 0.08%, if my math is correct).

All in all, it would seem that using 7 frames instead of 8 would yield slightly more honey, if we rely solely on the above math.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2013, 07:44:28 AM »

However, the above calculation fails to take into account the loss of cell space due to the fact that the bees change the angle of the cells to compensate for the added weight of the honey in them.  Perhaps as much as a full row of cells at the bottom (and possibly also at the top) of each frame will be wasted in the process.  So imagine the frame being 5 mm less tall than it actually is.  In a Langstroth super frame, that would reduce the one-side comb area from 0.052948 m2 to 0.050813 m2 (a reduction of between 0.04% and 0.08%, if my math is correct).

 Is this a theory or do you have references for the statement.


Moots.....
 I also see I miss the hive will produce more uncapped wax if the combs a cut down to the frame every time it is uncapped.
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
ugcheleuce
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2013, 07:54:51 AM »

However, the above calculation fails to take into account the loss of cell space due to the fact that the bees change the angle of the cells to compensate for the added weight of the honey in them.  Perhaps as much as a full row of cells at the bottom (and possibly also at the top) of each frame will be wasted in the process.
Is this a theory or do you have references for the statement.

It is mere speculation, based on my very limited experience with what brace comb tends to look like.  Either way, it is harmless speculation which can only increase and not decrease the accuracy of the answer to the question "does using fewer frames lead to less honey".

Even if the bees don't adjust the angle of the comb, but keep it the same angle, the fact that the comb is built at an angle will result in loss of volume overall if the cell lengths increase dramatically, don't you agree?  I mean, there will be less room on the frame for the top row of cells, and the bottom row of cells will protrude upwards and the space underneath them will go to waste, don't you agree?  Either way, the amount of wastage (if any) would be little (less than 0.1%, as per my previous post).
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