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Author Topic: Fiscally Responsible  (Read 2248 times)
iddee
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 10:16:20 PM »

Moots, it's only bad if conservatives do it. It's just the ???truth??? if they do it. You know, the etuff they wouldn't recognize if it ran over them.

Bluebee, you know we love you. You are the life of the party.

PS. I've still got a cold beer and/or a hot pot of coffee if you get by this way.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
10framer
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2013, 08:46:36 AM »

moots,  agree that everyone won't sign up and i'm fairly hardcore libertarian so i'm all for the government stepping aside but the fact is it's a law even if we don't like it.
in my opinion almost any libertarian is the best candidate.  the reason a third party can't get a hold is because of the very reason you stated.  people are so scared the guy they like the least will win that they'll vote for someone they may not particularly like just to stop that.  if about a third of the people that are probably in the middle like me would vote outside the two parties you'd see the people in those parties doing they're jobs.  
you must have better insurance than me.  i have prescription coverage and it refuses to pay for some things and my copay is over 200 dollars on others.  the free market is screwing me in that area but i do believe in the free market.  my point was that forcing people to get insurance doesn't make health care "affordable".  the statistic is about one third of the current uninsured that plan on taking the penalty.  i think there are people out there that can't get it that do want it.
i guess i'm too hard headed to let the two parties in power make a sheep out of me.  i will vote for a libertarian or 3rd party candidate until i see someone i think is a better candidate.  the last good presidents were reagan and nixon.
i live in alabama, it's going to go republican no matter how i vote.  the individual vote doesn't mean squat thanks to the electoral college but a ton of people live in fear of the other team winning.  well, the other team is in right now and i'm pretty sure they will be for a while.  you can pretty much thank the tea party as much as obama for that.  obama said a lot of bad things about republicans and palin and the tea party immediately went out and proved him right.    
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 10:10:01 AM »

Quote
the free market is screwing me

you have insurance.  you do not have the free market.  the market is you making the best deal for you.  not you taking the insurance you can get or are given, then having no idea what the real cost of care is.

insurance destroyed the free market in medicine.  it was demanded by (primarily) unions.  what are unions?  leftist organization.  what is their motto?  "someone else should pay for my stuff"

maybe our first problem to solve is to reeducate people about what the free market is?  sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 11:24:02 AM »


moots,  agree that everyone won't sign up and i'm fairly hardcore libertarian so i'm all for the government stepping aside but the fact is it's a law even if we don't like it.


10framer,
I fully understand "it's a law"....not sure what your point is...The history of this country has a long list of laws that have been changed or repealed.  The fact that the liberals want to refer to ObamaCare as the Holy Grail and claim it's untouchable because it's passed law is laughable.  


...the reason a third party can't get a hold is because of the very reason you stated.  people are so scared the guy they like the least will win that they'll vote for someone they may not particularly like just to stop that.  if about a third of the people that are probably in the middle like me would vote outside the two parties you'd see the people in those parties doing they're jobs.  


As I said, like it are not, for all practical purposes, we're a two party system, it is what it is.  You can if, If, IF, it to death....
If my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle...but she doesn't, so she's not!  What you're describing "may" be true...but it won't actually happen, so it's irrelevant.


...my point was that forcing people to get insurance doesn't make health care "affordable".  the statistic is about one third of the current uninsured that plan on taking the penalty.  i think there are people out there that can't get it that do want it.


I completely agree that forcing people to get insurance isn't the way to try and make healthcare affordable...I just added that I don't think more government regulation of drug companies and medical professionals is the answer either.

No doubt, there are people out there that want health care and can't get it....That doesn't mean that it's the federal governments job to fix it, or that it's even possible for them to fix. I'm sure there are folks that want a car and can't get one.  Is it the governments job to make sure they can get one?  Look what happened to the housing industry when the government decided that home ownership was a right and everyone should be able to buy a home...whether they could actually afford it or not....We all know how that one turned out!


...i guess i'm too hard headed to let the two parties in power make a sheep out of me.  i will vote for a libertarian or 3rd party candidate until i see someone i think is a better candidate.  
  

If you're voting for a 3rd party candidate that doesn't have a realistic chance of winning, the two parties in power don't need to make a sheep out of you, you're choosing to make yourself irrelevant!

...obama said a lot of bad things about republicans and palin and the tea party immediately went out and proved him right.    

REALLY?  Such as...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 01:44:22 PM by Moots » Logged

"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
10framer
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2013, 10:16:49 PM »

Quote
the free market is screwing me

you have insurance.  you do not have the free market.  the market is you making the best deal for you.  not you taking the insurance you can get or are given, then having no idea what the real cost of care is.

insurance destroyed the free market in medicine.  it was demanded by (primarily) unions.  what are unions?  leftist organization.  what is their motto?  "someone else should pay for my stuff"

maybe our first problem to solve is to reeducate people about what the free market is?  sad

unfortunately the drug manufacturers operate in the free market and charge me and you way more than they do people in other countries because the market will bear it here.  again, i'm pretty much a libertarian.  i'm all for the free market but i'm not too blind to see that the medical industry is sticking it to me because they can. 
your argument would actually back up obamacare.  i'm stuck with the limits of the insurance made available to me by my employer but i could drop that and get insurance from one of the choices.
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10framer
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2013, 10:21:08 PM »

moots, if enough people voted outside the two parties to make it close in any of the states that are normally hardcore red or blue you can bet our public servants would work harder.  my vote is irrelevant since the president isn't elected by the popular vote.  the popular votes only really make a difference in the swing states.  you don't see too many presidential candidates campaigning in alabama for a reason. 
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10framer
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2013, 10:32:33 PM »

i forgot to respond to the palin/tea party question.  this idiotic shut down is basically being blamed 100 percent on the republican party and the tea party in particular.  i think there is something like an 18 percent approval rating for republican congressmen right now.  mid term elections are coming up and this could very well hand the democrats the majority in the house and senate and will no doubt lock hilllary in as the next president.  the smart thing to do would have been to start digging into the law and bringing all the bad points to the surface instead of shutting down the government and giving obama more ammunition to convince people that the right is bad.  and palin was called stupid and she proved them right, she's an idiot.  she wasn't able to answer simple questions when she was interviewed and when she did answer some she generally shoved her foot in her mouth. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2013, 11:15:31 PM »

Quote
unfortunately the drug manufacturers operate in the free market and charge me and you way more than they do people in other countries because the market will bear it here.

not really true for a lot of reasons.  1st, those other countries limit what they will pay.  they also limit the drugs they will buy.  medicare and medicaid do the same.  FDA requirements and regulation drive the cost of drug development and marketing way up as do the constant law suits. so...not really free market...and that's not even counting the way the insurance companies skew the costs.

Quote
i'm all for the free market but i'm not too blind to see that the medical industry is sticking it to me because they can.
your argument would actually back up obamacare.  i'm stuck with the limits of the insurance made available to me by my employer but i could drop that and get insurance from one of the choices.

again, not sure you have a firm grasp of what the free market is. 

Quote
this idiotic shut down is basically being blamed 100 percent on the republican party and the tea party in particular.

right, but by whom?  given the nature of the press and the admin, to follow your logic: "whatever we do we'll get blamed" we should do nothing?  this might not have been the best hill to die on, but i, for one, am thrilled to see some of them growing a set.

Quote
and palin was called stupid and she proved them right, she's an idiot.  she wasn't able to answer simple questions when she was interviewed and when she did answer some she generally shoved her foot in her mouth.  

on that, you are simply wrong.  are you sure you were not watching SNL?  now...it's true that these things were said about her, but they were not true.




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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Moots
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 11:29:17 PM »

10framer,
Please, quit drinking the MSM Koolaid...Palin was targeted, attacked, setup and demonized by a liberal mainstream media with an agenda, she never had a chance, they were determined to ruin her from the start.  All the while they coddle and carry water for Obama, REMEMBER, it was Obama who said he had visited 57 states....How much time did the MSM spend reporting that little SNAFU?  Absolutely NONE!  Imagine the attention Palin would have gotten with the same comment.

Think about how much time the MSM spent telling us how stupid George W was...A man with degrees from both Yale and Harvard Business School.  Yet, they're constantly telling us how Brilliant Obama is...yet if I'm not mistaken, he's never released his college transcript. 

Not sure what to say on your 3rd party pipe dream....You keep saying IF, If, if....And I keep pointing out that the reality of the situation is it's never going to happen, at least not in our life times.  Not sure what else there is to add to that conversation.

As for your obvious dislike of the electoral college...there are some pretty good arguments in favor of it.  Here's a LINK to an article pointing out a few of them.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
JPinMO
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2013, 01:07:39 AM »

Hey, Blue, have you read Thomas Sowell's 10/4 column? Here are a couple excerpts:
(entire article is at http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.UljXVVPBNK8)

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives' right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that Congressmen there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

<another excerpt:>

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who — if anybody — "wants to shut down the government." But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for ObamaCare.

The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for ObamaCare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a "clean" bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word "clean" like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Harry Reid everything he wants?

If Senator Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run ObamaCare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.
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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters
cannot be trusted in large ones either. – Albert Einstein
sterling
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2013, 10:06:43 AM »

JP you going to confuse Blue with all those facts
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JPinMO
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2013, 12:18:10 PM »

JP you going to confuse Blue with all those facts

Sterling, that's why I posted only excerpts, not the full article. We wouldn't want Blue's head to spin so far that it falls off -- what would we do for entertainment around here?  evil
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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters
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10framer
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2013, 11:00:43 PM »

i don't watch msn or fox news.  i did see katy couric (whom i can't stand) ask her what financial periodicals she reads or something of that nature and she couldn't name one.
i've got a fine grasp on the concept of a free market economy.  i earn my money by selling things at a profit in a very volatile and competitive industry and i took a lot of economics classes as electives in college.  
suggesting i'm ignorant because i don't agree with you isn't an argument but it's usually what people on both ends of the spectrum start to do.  
i can say "if" a republican gets elected next election or the one after or the one after that but that probably won't happen and it's because they have picked the wrong battles.  i suspect we'll see a lot more independents elected in our life time but i can no more predict the future than anyone else, the difference is i can admit that to myself.
i'm so sick of hearing about the kool aide i can't stand it.  i've never voted for a democrat in a presidential election in my life but i think you're mistaking me for a liberal because i'm not automatically saying anything the republicans say or do is the absolute right thing to do.
i look at issues on a one on one basis.  i love my guns, i like my privacy, i like my tax breaks when i can find them and i don't resent other people that have accumulated wealth by turning a profit.  but, i couldn't care less if gays get married because i can't see where it has any bearing on how i live my life, i'm a reluctant supporter of pro choice even though it isn't a choice i would make but i like a lot of individual freedom.  i believe in separation of church and state but respect anyone's right to practice what ever religion they choose.  i was really mad about obamacare being rammed down our throats for a long time because i think obama has abused the power of the office at times but after calming down and knowing some people that it will actually help i think we need some kind of change in the system.  
it's a law, we're stuck with that.  we need to figure out what it says and start amending it but that probably won't happen for a long time now because the republicans have played into the democrats hands at every turn since obama was elected.  and i would bet that the democrats will have control of all branches of government after the mid terms because some extremists weren't smart enough to sit back and wait.    
i'm done with this thread because i'm wasting my breath and i'm not going to waste anymore time responding to all the cliched answers that have been used up.  is the media biased?  definitely, but crying about it isn't going to change it.  at this point it's like obama blaming bush for everything.  both parties are run by corrupt self serving people that couldn't care less about the average american but the country has blindly picked sides and no one is willing to even look for some kind of compromise.    
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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2013, 09:54:21 AM »

Quote
suggesting i'm ignorant because i don't agree with you isn't an argument but it's usually what people on both ends of the spectrum start to do. 

not suggesting or saying that you are ignorant. don't know where that came from.  i am going by the examples YOU gave of things you called free market, complained about not working, and are not free market examples.
by your own examples, i was left with the impression that you were not familiar with market forces absent insurance and government interference.

Quote
but after calming down and knowing some people that it will actually help i think we need some kind of change in the system. 

a few people might be helped if they can ever access the system.  many more people are already being hurt because of obama care.  many changes have been suggested over the years and rejected by the left.  that leave us believing that fixing the system was never their goal. 
you now support something that may help a few people, but will hurt most of us.  is this a good change?

Quote
it's a law, we're stuck with that.

there have been many laws over the years that have been bad, and we have dumped.  saying "were stuck with it" is not something many of us are willing to do. 
it's not a constitutions amendment.  we don't need to "amend" it.  we need to dump it and fix the problems.  they are retentively small and would be relatively easy to fix, if fixing them had ever been the goal. 

obama has already, and outside the law, made changes.  they are illegal.  they have made the law something different than what was passed by congress in the first place.  they are right to wish to defund it.

Quote
country has blindly picked sides and no one is willing to even look for some kind of compromise.   

not sure where you think we should compromise with a president who won't compromise and who exists to take away that very freedom you claim you want. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2013, 10:01:54 AM »

both parties are run by corrupt self serving people that couldn't care less about the average american

I couldn't agree more. The federal government has grown way outside it's intended boundary's. I happen to agree with the tea party principals. I firmly support the reduction in government spending. I would like to see the debt made null and let the world figure it out. I have a stake in what the consequences would be. The country needs drastic measures to correct the years of abuse. Times would be hard all over.
Our military needs to remain strong, our infrastructure needs rebuilt, industry needs to come back and provide jobs, welfare needs to be extended only to the truly disabled, feeble or old, able bodied people need to put to work rebuilding our country, foreign aid needs to stop, our country needs to have money in the bank. We live in a paper mache society with no structural support. Cheaper is better no matter where it comes from. Everyone wants change but no one is willing to pay the price. Thank God the patriots that fought to build this great republic weren't so shallow.

Ok, I said my piece. I know I'll be flogged for my statements. I'm proud to be an American. I love my country. I just feel like the bus is being driven by a bunch of blind idiots.
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Later,
Ray
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