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Author Topic: Who is responsible for this mess?  (Read 3089 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 10:34:33 PM »

Just another example of how the left is winning the war of words...

We now live in a country where "Profit" is a dirty word and Big Government and the citizenry thinks they know best how much a company should be allowed to make.

Whatever happened to the concept of "whatever the market will bear"?  It's the right answer, just not politically correct enough these days.... Sad
OK KathyP, I apologize for my earlier claim.  THIS is the most laughable thing I have read yet. lau

Forbes claims those poor NFL teams aren’t very profitable anymore either and might even lose money during the playoffs.   Those poor NFL paupers. angel  The leftists sure have destroyed good old capitalism haven’t they. lau 
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Moots
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2013, 10:55:06 PM »

Hey Blue,
Why don't you buy an NFL team while you're at it....I mean, you seem to have it ALL FIGURED OUT!

I love the way you and others think folks should put their money at risk to start a company to provide jobs and benefits to workers but yet you want to begrudge and hate them if they dare turn more of a profit than you think they should!

By the way, how you coming on that list of things that BO has done to cause or aid the rise in the stock market that you promised me 4+ months ago?

Personally, I think that DODGE by you is quite laughable, not to mention WEAK!  If I remember right, you were too tired! lau
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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hjon71
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2013, 05:00:32 AM »

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insurance companies run on a slim margin. around 3% for the for profits


I'm unsure if your wording is off or I misunderstood your intent. But after some research that number is pretty misleading. They certainly do not run on 3%. Even the 15% iddee mentioned was ,before ACA, set by the state. Here is a decent explanation:

 http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.php?brief_id=30
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buzzbee
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 07:08:03 AM »

Funny no one wants to see the elephant in the room. Government regulation has made it so only large companies can survive. AA small efficient insurance company would get eaten up by red tape and not enough staff to unravel it. And now we have to deal with HHS ,IRS and a host of other agencies to provide healthcare. Ebven the big boys will get buried by the regulators.

The employees of these companies make a million a year?   Where do I apply?
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 10:50:49 AM »

the other thing is that insurance is a business.  why do we have the business of medical insurance?  because people demanded it.  they demanded that someone else pay for what they use and they demanded that this be made available as part of their employment.  it's not a charity.  it did not spring up as some kind of foul plot.  what the profit margin is or is not is not the issue.
it is what was demanded....and falls under the "be careful what you ask for". 

insurance took the market forces out of patient care.  for those of us who invest, absent some kind of plague or disaster, insurance companies are a good investment.  you pay in.  hopefully you (all) pay in more than you use.  the company and the investor (me) make money.

hjon71, if you read that article carefully, you can see that the debate on what the companies actually can call profit is, and is going to be, very political.  the government is now telling the companies how much they must spend on medical care and defining what that medical care is, how much they can spend on admin, etc.  again, the AFC is designed to destroy insurance companies so that the only solution is the government.
people are so out of the habit of paying for what they use, they think they can't get care without insurance and they will panic.  they will happily go to the government for "care".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 11:01:49 AM »

Kathy,
Good points....Another thing that threw the entire system out of whack is abuse of the system. There are lots of folks that every time they or one of their kids sneeze, they want to run to the doctor.  I often hear people say, "Go to the doctor, it'll just cost you 20 bucks"....So they abuse the hell out of a good thing, then they're all shocked and surprised when their rates go up.
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 11:23:41 AM »

and it gets worse with national health care.  England had to start running PSAs to get people to stop doing that very thing.  they had people dying in the ER because the ER was so over crowed with people who found it more convenient to go there than to wait for an appointment. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »

Yeah....It's one of the many reasons why socialism will just never work.  It's human nature, most folks just can't help themselves from abusing what otherwise, should be a "good thing"!

One of the best analogies I ever heard was a politician describing it like a wedding reception...It's the difference between a cash bar and an open bar, people just behave differently!  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
                                                                                                                   - Ronald Reagan
hjon71
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2013, 12:16:54 PM »

Not arguing with you Kathy, just a clarification. If it were possible I wouldn't carry any insurance. But try to finance a car without insurance. Forget about a house.

I know, I know pay cash right?
I might could swing a new car. But dang if it isn't now illegal to drive w/out liability.  I can self-insure you say? That's right in some states You can, If you have $250,000 to back it. Dang, got me again. Well you could bond yourself......wait isn't that a lot like insurance? ??
Around and around we go....

Believe me, I have looked at it several ways and it usually winds up at  thunder we're screwed again.
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2013, 03:07:49 PM »

the difference between car insurance and this plan is that you have the choice not to drive, and that those mandates are by the state, not the federal government, so you have the choice to move.

with this, you have no choice. the federal govenrment is mandating that you buy a product.  the government lawyers got around the constitutional issue by arguing that you had a choice between insurance and the fine...and they defined it all as a tax, which is what they told us it was not.  i think Roberts had to really stretch his mind to accept that argument, but he did it.  congress has the right to tax.  the supreme court does not have the right to stop the congress from taxing.

so back to medical insurance.  it make sense to carry insurance to cover those things that you could not cover with cash.  major surgery, illness, and injury.  just as you pay out of pocket for your oil change and new wiper blades, you should pay out of pocket for snotty noses and vaccines.  the problem is that we came to believe that what ever we want medically, should be paid for by someone else.
 why should i pay for your Viagra.  why should you pay for my estrogen.  why should any of us pay for the birth control or abortion that someone else wants.  if each of us were paying for what we use and going to the doctor or clinic of our choice, medical costs for each of us would be lower.  medical cost over all would be lower because doctors and clinics would compete for our business.
if you did tort reform you'd have a lot more doctors, nurses, and hospitals doing charity work. 

i know...i repeat myself smiley

but this mess is the result of leftist taking advantage of the failings of a system that we demanded.  if they really cared about the uninsured we could have insured every one of them for a fraction of the cost of this legislation and no fuss.  if we really wanted to fix the system, it could have been done years ago because, yes, conservatives have put forward many ideas about fixing it, but they were rejected by the leftists (primarily).  why?  it never was the goal to fix the system.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2013, 06:37:55 PM »

>>but this mess is the result of leftist taking advantage of the failings of a system that we demanded.  if they really cared about the uninsured we could have insured every one of them for a fraction of the cost of this legislation and no fuss.  if we really wanted to fix the system, it could have been done years ago because, yes, conservatives have put forward many ideas about fixing it, but they were rejected by the leftists (primarily).  why?  it never was the goal to fix the system

Right this is a leftist thing.

Blaming the republicans for Obama Care like hjon does is like blaming the crowing rooster for the sun raising.


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buzzbee
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2013, 07:54:56 PM »

Where I blame Republicans for Obama care is not cutting off the funding from day one when they took over the House of Representatives. This was their campaign promise.Not to just defund it, but repeal it. They should have said no to a lot of money items.They have the constitutional authority.
They have the authority to bring articles of impeachment when Obama delays only parts of the law for one year. He has no authority to do so. Only Congress can change or write law. If he gives exemptions via executive order he is also breaking the law.
Obama has done so much via executive fiat that they should have dragged him kicking and screaming before the House and Senate. They ignore their due diligence in the powers of checks and balances.  Congress has the abilty to impeach and remove people from offices like the IRS , HHS, State Department and many other agencies. But they sit back and watch as every acronym agency goes about it's way circumventing their Constitutional authority. It may be time to toss all of them out and start fresh.
 We need to move away from these elitists that have been "groomed" .so to speak, for  public office and perhaps return to more of a "citizen' government. They have proven that professional politicians are not really a bargain in any way shape or form. 
 
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2013, 08:55:34 PM »

they were afraid of being called racists and he knew it and used it.  + a lot of people really did believe that he was a moderate.  they shouldn't have, but they did.

any way you slice it, you can't stop stuff if you only hold one half of one third of government.  you can't even really defund stuff because there is no budge and as long as the senate doesn't do one and CRs are the funding mechanism, the house can't stop anything.
even as the left is screaming about republicans being obstructionists, the snicker in their sleeve because they have set it up so than nothing can be obstructed.

yes, they could have made more noise.  yes, we could have had this same fight with ever CR.  no we could not stop what he's doing short of getting the court to stop him, and they didn't.  because of a long history of the alphabet agencies having so much latitude, congress is out of luck there too.

we now have a ruling party and there is nothing that can be done to stop them until they can be voted out...and then we'd better make dang sure that we don't put RINOs in office who will leave this crap in place.

and no, nothing that we know of, so far, rises to an impeachable offense...and it couldn't be done with this congress anyway.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2013, 09:52:14 PM »

pat buchanan is right about one thing.  the house can send resolutions to the senate one at a time to fund whatever they want.  parks, zoos, etc.  that way, the senate can decide whether or not they want to keep little Johny from seeing Yellowstone for the sake of obamas signature accomplishment.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2013, 11:34:18 PM »

For those following this Federal Employee, there is good news for my crew (a group of 11) we are deemed essential if a shut down occurs tonight.

That sad news, Lakehurst employees 3400 workers, of which rouchly 75 are essential. So very likely tomorrow I will be driving through a ghost town of a Air Force/ Navy Base. I see it this way on weekends, when even fewer people are on our base, but to not see 3300 people on a Tuesday will be a reality check.

The on issue that effects me, is if I have a sick day (i will next Thursday) it is a furlough day - even though I have weeks of sick hours, NONE can be applied to pay me for being out - it is a LEAVE WITHOUT PAY DAY.

And I cant see this going on long, but I'm sitting on 54 hours of USE OR LOSE TIME that I would also just lose and those hours literally (like the dollar bill or a Democratic promise on Capitol Hill) has no value.

So, I'll be working, getting paid when working and no pay for sick or leave - but it is seeing a double rainbow compared to the near 800 thousand that will stay home, earning nothing and holding the unemployment cards passed out to the today to use if this exceeds a week.

At Least Obama shot in the low 90s on the golf course, glad to see the pressure hasn't ruined his game.
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hjon71
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2013, 01:06:47 AM »

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Blaming the republicans for Obama Care like hjon does is like blaming the crowing rooster for the sun raising.

Republicans aren't blameless. My point now as always is BOTH parties are guilty, for different reasons /motives/agendas, call it what you will.

In this case you know my opinion right up front in the OP.

Quote
It may be time to toss all of them out and start fresh. We need to move away from these elitists that have been "groomed" .so to speak, for public office and perhaps return to more of a "citizen' government. They have proven that professional politicians are not really a bargain in any way shape or form.

Yes. There are a few good ones. I like Justin Amash and how he announces every vote and why he voted that way.

Quote
any way you slice it, you can't stop stuff if you only hold one half of one third of government.

Looks like more excuse making to me. While technically true, not completely accurate(kinda like the 3% assertion). They hold the majority and that is all that matters(darn democracy). BuzzBee nailed it. The House controls the purse strings, created that way for a purpose...Time to put up or shut up.
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2013, 10:50:08 AM »

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BuzzBee nailed it. The House controls the purse strings, created that way for a purpose..

in theory, but only in conjuction with the senate and with the president not vetoing what he doesn't like.  if they really controlled the purse strings, they would have what they presented to the senate passed, wouldn't they? 

BTW...i went back over the 3% for health care insurance, and only health care.  it stands as an average.  there are companies that make far more. there are others that make less.  remember that you are factoring in  non-profits which include some of the biggest systems in the country.  this would include giants like Kaiser, parts of Blue Cross/Blue Shield/, the AARP plans......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2013, 05:32:51 PM »

The founders designed the house to be a representative of the people. Unfortunatley we need a whole lot more representatives so each represents a smaller population and would be more in tune to the people that sent them there.
The Senate was originally set up to be representatives of the states governments.Not directly voted in by the people.
It was by design for each branch to be a check and balance to the other. It was by design that 2/3 of each legislative branch could over rule a veto. It was not designed for the President to make his demands met or do it by executive fiat.
The Democrats first and foremost do own the ACA bill. Not one Republican voted for it on Christmas Eve when they passed it. It has been the Senate Democrats that have not passed one budget in the last four or five years. The  continuing resolution has no place in budgetary matters . As far as I am concerned, the House should continue sending bills with less discretionary spending every day until they get the hint and pass an actual budget that does not include baselining and pork barrel spending.
The US debt per citizen is 53 thousand dollars each, knock that down to debt per taxpayer and the number rises to an incredible $148,000 dollars each.  And they think if we increase the debt ceiling that we won't be in deeper?   People like Pelosi and Reid think the government doesn't have a spending problem?    Give me a break.

As much as we have spent on the poor, there should not be any more poor people.
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2013, 05:47:36 PM »

and you hit on the underlying reason that we are here.  it has little to do with obama care, or his majesties legacy.  we are here because there has been no budget passed in all the time that obama has been president.  it is the law.  they have refused to do it.  the house has done their part.  Harry Reid will not take it up.

congress can send funding bills over to the house for every little thing that needs funded and just leave obama care out of it.  eventually, everything will be funded except that, or the Senate will have to explain why they will not fund services.  i'd send them one every day.  each time somone points out  something that's not funded, send a bill. 

and yes...chop of 10% or so ever time you are required to resend to the Senate.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2013, 07:32:30 PM »

And why should we even think of funding a law that Obama himself does not enforce, such as with the delays for special groups and exemptions for Capitoll Hill cronies.
If the insurance is not good enough for Congress, the White House and all of their staffers, why in the he#@ should I be forced into such a program?
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