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Author Topic: Who is responsible for this mess?  (Read 2989 times)
hjon71
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« on: September 28, 2013, 07:26:01 PM »

Who really benefits from the ACA aka Obamacare?
The focus seems to be on helping the poor, and those with pre-existing conditions who couldn't get insurance. Which is why Democrats like it, I get that. But is that all?

But how about the insurance companies who's business has just multiplied, same for the drug companies? Is it really any wonder the Republicans didn't really want it to fail?

Requiring insurance or Forcing the payment of penalties is one more step in degrading liberty. And Both parties are responsible. Politicians talk a good game but watch their actions. They really aren't that different. They just go about it in different ways. Rant over, Carry on.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 09:12:18 PM »

carry on, aya.   grin

i think you got part of all of it.  a lot of dems thought that it would be good to insure the uninsured and bring down cost for the working poor.  the lefts solution to all problems is more government.

a lot of insurance agencies and brokers (AARP) thought that forcing people to buy insurance would be good for their business.

a lot of republicans were to lazy to fight for the plans and programs that they had, over the years, put forward.  to cut them a little slack, there wasn't anything they could have done when all was held by dems, and there's not really anything they can do now. 

the problem is that good intentions rarely translate into effective government programs. why not?  because by the time everyone has had a piece of it, the programs is bloated and muddled. 
in this case, they are getting the opposite of what they said they wanted.  more uninsured.  more cost.  less service.

 it is bound to fail and many of us believe planned to fail.  how on earth could supposedly intelligent people put our such a piece of trash program unless it was the plan?

all of the leftist who are honest, say that the goal is single payer.  to get to single payer, you have to destroy what we now have.  you can't fix it.  you have to eliminate it. 
then the government can come in and put in place the plan that has always existed for government run health care.  obama wants obama care now, not to help anyone, but to be able to trash the system in his time and offer the solution.  it is the same reason that the left will fight for Hillary or someone just like her in the next election. they need to finish this important work.

the real question is: why is single payer so very important to the left?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hjon71
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 04:08:53 AM »

Quote
a lot of insurance agencies and brokers (AARP) thought that forcing people to buy insurance would be good for their business...

the problem is that good intentions rarely translate into effective government programs. why not? because by the time everyone has had a piece of it, the programs is bloated and muddled.

Exactly.

Quote
to cut them a little slack, there wasn't anything they could have done when all was held by dems, and there's not really anything they can do now.

This where we part ways. Big surprise huh?
So I won't be cutting them any slack.
I believe they are complicit in the very plan you have described. Republican politicians push the same Global Initiatives as the Democrats. They are just sneakier about it.
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 10:04:38 AM »

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Republican politicians push the same Global Initiatives as the Democrats.

that may be, but i was sticking to the health care subject  Wink

back to the insurance companies for a second.  as it turned out, the deal was not so good for them and by the time the found out what was actually going to be required of them, it was to late...as it was for all of us.

the idea that young people can skate out of this but the ICs must take pre-existing conditions and that there can be no cap, is going to kill insurance companies....which, again, was the plan.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
nella
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 10:21:17 AM »

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Republican politicians push the same Global Initiatives as the Democrats.

 ICs must take pre-existing conditions and that there can be no cap, is going to kill insurance companies







I don't believe it will hurt the insurance companies because they will just increase your premiums like they do now. My medicare supplemental plan went up 33% this year, but I can't change companies until the open enrollment period at the end of the year and they don't accept all pre-existing conditions. So you are locked in to what you have and pay, this is set up and controlled by the government(insurance companies).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 10:49:01 AM by nella » Logged
iddee
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 06:05:52 PM »

I have to agree with Hjon on this one. The republicans screwed us well this time.

Earlier today, the United States Senate voted to fund Obamacare.

There were 25 Republicans who betrayed their principles and voted for cloture, giving Democrats the power to implement this terrible law.

This is a disappointing loss, but the bill now goes back to the House where Republicans must hold their ground and refuse to fund Obamacare.

Here are the 25 Senate Republicans who voted to allow Harry Reid (D-NV) and the Democrats to fund Obamacare today:

Lamar Alexander (R-TN)
John Cornyn (R-TX)
Kelly Ayotte (R-NH)
Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
John Barrasso (R-WY)
John Hoeven (R-ND)
Roy Blunt (R-MO)
Johnny Isakson (R-GA)
John Boozman (R-AR)
Mike Johanns (R-NE)
Richard Burr (R-NC)
Ron Johnson (R-WI)
Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Mark Kirk (R-IL)
Jeff Chiesa (R-NJ)
John McCain (R-AZ)
Dan Coats (R-IN)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
Tom Coburn (R-OK)
Lisa Murkowksi (R-AK)
Thad Cochran (R-MS)
John Thune (R-SD)
Susan Collins (R-ME)
Roger Wicker (R-MS)
Bob Corker (R-TN)
 

LEADING THE SURRENDER

There were a lot of people who worked against us in this fight, but nobody worked harder to fund Obamacare in the Senate than Mitch McConnell (R-KY), the Republican Leader.

Mitch McConnell pressured several Republicans to withdraw their names from the letter pledging to oppose Obamacare funding, he falsely accused conservatives of supporting a government shutdown, and he actively encouraged Republicans to support cloture this week so the Democrats could fund Obamacare.

If Mitch McConnell had not opposed this effort, there is no question that we would have won the vote today. He showed that he has clout in Washington. Unfortunately, he used it to hurt millions of American families.

SENATE CONSERVATIVES

We want to thank U.S. Senators Mike Lee (R-UT) and Ted Cruz (R-TX) for their extraordinary courage.

Most Republicans promise to stand up for conservative principles during the campaign, but then let us down after they're elected.

Mike Lee and Ted Cruz are different. They deliver.

These two men endured relentless attacks from all sides. The criticisms from the Democrats and the mainstream media were harsh, but the most personal attacks came from members of their own party.

We need more principled leaders like Mike Lee and Ted Cruz because Washington won't change without a fight.

We are extremely grateful to have them in the Senate defending liberty and we will continue to do everything we can to support them.

Best regards,

Matt Hoskins
Executive Director
Senate Conservatives Fund
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »

iddee, i don't disagree with you, but i'm not sure it would have made a difference.  without enticing some dems over, they would not have had the 60 they needed.  unfortunate that the old guard is so stuck on the idea of negociation and nice playing when the dems are telling them "my way or the highway".  i will be happy to see the likes of McCain, gone.

Quote
I don't believe it will hurt the insurance companies because they will just increase your premiums like they do now. My medicare supplemental plan went up 33% this year, but I can't change companies until the open enrollment period at the end of the year and they don't accept all pre-existing conditions. So you are locked in to what you have and pay, this is set up and controlled by the government(insurance companies).

insurance companies run on a slim margin.  around 3% for the for profits, and cost + whatever the law allows as a cushion for the non-profits.  of course they are going to raise your rates.  how can they not?  they are a business (not government).

it does not help that the government has reduced they reimbursement for medicare, thus making it more likely that you will have trouble even finding someone who will take you.  medicare is the perfect example of a govenrment run program; being over budget, over top heavy, under funded, and now providing under-service.  but....you get what you pay for.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 07:26:32 PM »

Kathy, I agree that democrat McCain, who poses as a republican, and a few others should have been gone long ago.

I don't know about ins. companies in all states, but in NC, they are guaranteed a 15% profit.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 07:42:30 PM »

Part of the reason they "surrendered" is they are afraid if they shut down the government and no one notices, they will have trouble with what comes next...
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 07:56:16 PM »

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but in NC, they are guaranteed a 15% profit.

by whom?  i did find something about that in your auto insurance.  is it the same in medical insurance and if so, why?  which would make the point, i think, that government interference skews the market.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 08:14:55 PM »

By the state. All rates are approved by the ins. commissioner, and are set at 15%.
I don't know what all is covered, but I do know the med ins. companies are always applying for rate increases, so I suppose they are covered under the same umbrella.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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hjon71
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 08:22:50 PM »

Kathy where did you find the 3% profit margin? I find it hard to believe a business can be successful at those margins.
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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »

hjon, I think that was published as 3% on turnover. Thus, 5 turnovers each year equals 15% annually.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 09:24:48 PM »

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Kathy where did you find the 3% profit margin?


i'll have to look for it.  it's an average.  remember that some of the biggest insurers are non-profit.  they are limited by law in how much money they can take in.  they only have a limited buffer that they can save.

+ insurance companies don't make money on the actual insurance, for the most part.  they  make money (or lose it) on investing.  after operating expenses and dividend payment, the profit is invested in various things to grow the money...hopefully. 

OK, the best two articles i found are dated, so the info may not be accurate now.  the more recent stuff had the insurance companies making higher profit now...but they also were articles with political agendas.  in that search i'm sure there was accurate info, but i just don't have time now to comb through it all.  google it and see what you come up with.

http://larrycheng.com/2010/03/08/just-how-profitable-are-healthcare-insurers/

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2009/08/25/why-health-insurers-make-lousy-villains

here's something from an investment company, but i can't tell you when it was written or if they are accurate.

http://www.iedc-consulting.com/profit-margin-for-health-insurance-companies/
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 09:45:51 PM »

insurance companies run on a slim margin.  around 3% for the for profits, and cost + whatever the law allows as a cushion for the non-profits.  of course they are going to raise your rates.  how can they not?  they are a business (not government).

This may be the most laughable assertion I’ve seen yet!  Oh, those poor insurance companies. shocked

While you may be technically correct, the supposition that these insurance guys are running an efficient ship is beyond laughable.  Do you have any idea how much $$$$ goes to the medical billers pushing bytes from one computer to another?  Or how many employees at the insurance companies make $1million+ a year? 

Sure, anybody can drive the profits to 0% simply by paying themselves exorbitant salaries; which is exactly what they do.

Do you want to know what industry REALLY ran on 2% to 5% margins?  The autos!  (pre-bankruptcy).  The insurance companies aren’t your daddy’s Oldsmobile……
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iddee
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 09:58:02 PM »

Again, Bluebee, those percentages were calculated on turnover. 5% turned over every month equals 60% annual profit. They cry all the way to the bank.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2013, 10:13:14 PM »

Agreed iddee.  They may spend more time at the bank than actually working.
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Moots
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 10:16:30 PM »

Just another example of how the left is winning the war of words...

We now live in a country where "Profit" is a dirty word and Big Government and the citizenry thinks they know best how much a company should be allowed to make.

Whatever happened to the concept of "whatever the market will bear"?  It's the right answer, just not politically correct enough these days.... Sad
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 10:18:06 PM »

Agreed iddee.  They may spend more time at the bank than actually working.

Hey Blue,
If it's so easy, why don't you start an insurance company?  grin
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 10:29:29 PM »

Funny you should mention it Moots!  There is an aspect of realestate law that virtually guarantees zero risk and yet is not being served by the big insurance companies.  That's the golden rule of all insurance; make sure you have ZERO risk!
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