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Author Topic: Oh... the beauty of guns  (Read 1806 times)
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« on: September 20, 2013, 12:18:32 AM »

Anyone following my other post on TIME TO GET A HAND GUN knows I'm studying the nearly indestructible $125 Hi-Point to the most decked out Sig Sauers and everything in between.

An evolution of sort has happened, let's call it since you are still likely months from a firearms ID and handgun permits - the is a whole world of beauty and functionality in handgun (sorry not done much with long guns) but to see the amazing feats of John Moses Browning to the simplicity of Glocks, my eyes have opened to the incredible and often subtle differences.

I can really see how people can relate to the weapons of choice, what sparks their interest and why people collect guns for so many reasons. I've never been a collector of anything really, never had interest in sports and bubblegum cards was just an expensive way to buy gum - lol.

But I have watch many videos of complete strip-down of many different guns and amazed at how each resolved the needs of design to accomplish what they meant to achieve in the final product. Seeing gun-smiths doing repairs and modifications is fascinating to me, seeing how complicated a tear-down can be on one gun and how simple it is on another makes me want to see what the thinking process was that created the differences in design.

I just know (without ever touching one) I could field-strip a Glock in about 10 seconds blind-folded. I don't think I can say that about any other gun I have seen. Doesn't make it better, but it sure makes sense what the popularity in much of law enforcement is.

I just was wondering what you look for in a handgun? If you had a short list what are the most important features of a handgun to you. I don't believe accuracy is a real issue (people debate this all over the internet) but any gun can shoot well in the hands of a good shooter. Good shooter of course are people who learn quickly to compensate for any sight setting issues, windage, trigger pull, reset from recoil, inconsistencies in ammo - all those things that I'm sure come pretty natural with practice - my manufacturers find out pretty quick if there is a flaw in design, and good manufacturers attend to the issues quickly and free of charge. So taking out clunkers, guns are pretty accurate critters.

So what are the things that really selling points to you, and what are real deal-breakers in options or designs?

I'll throw my TOTALLY Internet learned thinking out there, I'll say I'm over 1000 hours of videos by respected Youtubers who are educators on weapons and not just fans of particular models showing off their toys.

1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded? I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me. No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs. I'll chime in on this, I don't want a full sized gun - mid-size seems ideal since I've shied away from the minis a bit, but understand the need for conceal carry, etc..

Is there a perfect gun out the for you? Do you have it already. And are manufacturers missing the boat completely on some feature you would love to have stock on a gun - even after market, I mean do we really need a blue-tooth enabled pistol/cellphone - are we that addicted to technology that if a gun had 4G service, we'd want it?

Just carrying on here, just finished 16 hour shift and a bit loopy, but I'm interested, what make your favorite gun, your favorite gun. And if it isn't, what would make it so.
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OldMech
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 01:17:48 AM »

hmmm.. Having owned and worked on most all of them, I have several I like.
   I think the most accurate handgun i have ever owned was a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag with a 4 power scope. I could hit a soda can at 100 yards 4 out of 5 shots with it.. but it was not a practical defense gun..
   Second to that was my Desert eagle in .50 AE..    It had a Bushnel Holo sight on it and outshot friends rifles, and I still have the proof of that today.. but again, not a practical defense gun..
   Beretta 92fs (Italy) was superbly dependable and shot well. A lot of accessories for it, including large capacity mags.. I guess it would be my second choice.
   My first will always be the 1911.  It can be field stripped faster than the glock, and has a LOT of goodies and accessories. More than most any other handgun out there.  With an aftermarket frame/wider grip you can double stack for extra capacity, and they will fit larger hands better. Get rid if the grip safety. Ramp and polish the throat, open the ejection port a bit, and hone the mag well so mags drop free when you push the release..   Add adjustable sights, adjustable trigger and you have a custom gun for less than you will pay outright for most other guns..  AND, with the exception of the new frame those are things anyone can do..
  I used to buy Essex stainless frames a dozen at a time, and then order Mil Spec surplus parts kits. Bead blast the frame, and BLUE the slide etc.. for a really sharp two tone gun.  I could fit, assemble, and sell them for under 400 dollars.
 With the additions I mentioned above, they were still under 600 dollars with no true limit on how far you could take them if you wanted to..    Stock from the factory they function well, but.. to me, no gun from the factory functions the way "I" think it should, but they do have to draw the line between profit and quality somewhere...
   I have a lot of stories, but will desist...  Another time!!   LOL

   I have had a couple of Glocks for personal guns, a 17 and a 19, and worked on the guns from the local police department.
   AS IS from the factory (at that time) about 50% of them did not feed well, and some of them liked to stovepipe. It didnt take much to fix them.. but the point is, they shouldn't NEED fixed..   I gave up my license 13 years ago. I would like to think they fixed those problems by now!!

  On another note;
  It has been my experience that semi auto handguns are PICKY about what you feed them..   Obviously in a home defense situation you want full power high expanding ammo.. but when your practicing, you will want to shoot CHEAP ammo..   
   YOUR gun may not like the cheap ammo, it may not feed it well depending on the bullet type you use, and the powder charge may not have enough GRUNT to cycle the action well...

   You want to make sure that what you will have in the clip at HOME, when you will need it desperately, feeds PERFECTLY every time..   
   At the range, you can afford to fix an occasional jam, stuck round or stovepipe. Dont let inconsistencies with the cheap ammo degrade your opinion of the gun. Find the ammunition it likes to eat the most. Practice with it, so You are confident in the ammo AND the gun, THEN play with cheaper ammunition to help familiarize yourself.
  If you like the Glock Great!!  Just make sure whatever gun you choose functions correctly with the ammunition you intend to use when push comes to shove.

   
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 01:58:24 AM »

I have and have shot a few, my choice of the ones I have is an Ithaca 45 auto.  I have a Ruger 22 for plinking.  Shooting at the range is different that walking in the woods and shooting.  You get to where you don't aim say at a snake, you just point and shoot.  I can hit better with the 45 than I can with the 22, and have shot snakes no aim with the 22.  Whatever you decide to get, get use to it.  And like Old Mech try different loads.  A good friend shoots is matches here and internationally.  He gave me some rounds that he shot in matches, wouldn't cycle mine.  Good luck with your search, and may you never need it for defense.



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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 07:28:40 AM »


1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

If your concealed-carry weapon is uncomfortably heavy (or large) you will look for (and find) excuses to not carry it.

2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

Ammo in a gunfight is like gum, you should bring enough for everybody. Most defensive handgun encounters are over in less than three rounds and three seconds, but at least one spare magazine is always a good idea, since the magazine is the most likely component of a pistol to fail or be misplaced. If you drop a mag during a malfunction drill or a magazine exchange, you are unlikely to retrieve it quickly. Take a course where you do those things in realistic, high-stress, low-light, dynamic situations and you'll learn to just abandon a dropped mag and go on to your next one.

3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded? I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

"Locked and loaded" is a frequently misunderstood phrase. It means "safety on and a round in the chamber". I carry modern DAO pistols with the safety off, if they even have a safety. A safety is something you will have to fumble with at a time when your fine motor skills are seriously degraded. And if you don't have a round in the chamber, you may as well be carrying a rock.

Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Sights are very rarely used during defensive shootings. You are literally, physically incapable of focusing on sights once you reach a certain adrenaline level. You will focus on nothing but your assailant.

Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

All else being equal (though it never is), I like an external hammer.

Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me. No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs. I'll chime in on this, I don't want a full sized gun - mid-size seems ideal since I've shied away from the minis a bit, but understand the need for conceal carry, etc..

A full-sized handgun is much easier to shoot well than a compact. But the whole point of a defensive handgun is to have it on you when you need it, and if it's too large or heavy to be comfortable and concealable, you won't. The next time someone tells you how wonderful 1911's are for concealed carry, ask to see theirs. It's almost a guarantee that it'll be home in their safe. "Well, I was only going out to the store, so I didn't put it on..."

Is there a perfect gun out the for you? Do you have it already. And are manufacturers missing the boat completely on some feature you would love to have stock on a gun - even after market, I mean do we really need a blue-tooth enabled pistol/cellphone - are we that addicted to technology that if a gun had 4G service, we'd want it?

My favorite fighting handgun on the market right now is the H&K USPc. But it's too large and heavy for everyday concealed carry. The one I almost always have on my belt is a Kahr P9. Sometimes it's a Kahr PM9. Sometimes the former is on my belt and the latter is on my ankle. The PM9 can use the P9's magazines, so that helps keep things simple.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 07:54:24 AM »

beemaster,
I think we all assume it, but #1 on my list would have to be reliability.  If you're not confident that your weapon of choice is going to function the way it's designed to, there's no point in owning it.

Other than that I would simply add that I pretty much agree and second everything Oblio said, I'm also a fan of the Kahr for concealed carry...Personally, I have the PM40, I number of guys with our department have the P40, and my brother has the PM45.  On the external hammer question....it isn't a deal maker or deal breaker for me.

As I've said before, I'm also a huge fan of the Glock, trust me, if the issues OldMech mentioned were still issues, they wouldn't have the market share they have.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 08:42:55 AM »

You'll need to purchase multiple guns to satisfy your needs!
My Sigs all have their purpose, GSR .45 is my wake up and get the shotgun, side arm for hunting and car based adventures.
The 228 is great for concealed carry in casual wear and the 290 much smaller for shorts/t shirt concealed.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 08:57:13 AM »

<Whatever you decide to get, get use to it - Joe D>  That's ssssooooo important.

It was once said, "Finding your pistol should be as easy and common as finding your wallet" You don't have to think much when you grab your wallet. Your pistol should be the same way.

Of course others have said; "You need a pistol to buy time to get to your long barrel."

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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 09:05:29 AM »

>1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

I think if you are carrying it weight is also a big issue (light being preferred) but shooting a high powered gun, weight is also an issue for recoil.  (yes I know technically it does not change it, but it does spread it over time).  I want stopping power, and that takes some weight to absorb it.

>2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

I'm perfectly happy with five shots in a defense situation.  The odds of an army attacking you are pretty slim.  I don't miss.

>3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded?

I have no use for a semi-auto pistol as anything other than a plinker.  They are too complicated to run in the middle of the night when half asleep.  There are too many "states" that they can be in.  I prefer a modern DA revolver (hammer blocked when the trigger is not pulled) that has all chambers loaded.  The other thing I hate about semi-autos is, since I handload, I like to load for accuracy and power.  Instead, with a semi-auto, I have to load for only one criteria--how it runs the action.  That just seems SO wrong to me.

> I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

The concept of a safety makes sense on certain firearms in certain conditions.  It makes no sense on other firearms.  There is no reason for a safety on a DA revolver.  No reason for a safety on a DA only semi auto.  No reason for a safety on a lever action rifle with an exposed hammer, or a falling block with an exposed hammer if they have a hammer block when the trigger is not pulled (typical on modern guns).  In these cases they only overly complicate things and make one more thing you could forget or could go wrong.  Nothing quite as frustrating when hunting or defending your self as pulling the trigger and nothing happens.  In the case of hunting it can cost you food.  In the case of self defense it can cost your life.  Any hammerless gun with the possibility of having a cocked hammer needs a safety and you need to have an ingrained protocol on how you handle it so you don't find yourself pulling the trigger with the safety on...

>Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

I've always thought a laser sight would be cool.  I'll probably never buy one...  You can get used to any of them.  You can't see any of them in the dark if they are lighted in some way.  But most self defense situations are too close to matter.

>Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

That depends on the gun, of course.  A large DA revolver should have a hammer.  A DA pocket revolver could do without one so it doesn't catch on your pocket.

>Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me.

The main use for a small pistol is concealability.  They are not more shootable unless your hands are really small.

>No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs.

I have a few with bi-pods and scopes, but not tri-pods... nice for long range shooting.  I've done a lot of long range even with revolvers.  It's fun shooting at shot gun shells at 200 yards with a high powered revolver.  You miss often enough to be a challenge and hit often enough to be fun.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 02:12:47 PM »

since my "opponents" are likely to be 4 legged rather than 2 I go for the largest most reliable available,  for me with my old felony until I can get that cleared up I use a black powder .44 Remington,  if I need more than 6 rounds in a "gunfight" there is going to be at least 2 guns laying around that are no longer being used.  first rule of a gunfight is bring a gun!  after that every thing becomes academic,  carry what you are comfortable with, and always carry it!  before my felony I carried either a ruger security 6 357 with 2 speed loaders or a ruger black hawk 357.  that black hawk would put 5 of 6 in a 9 inch paper plate at 50 yards as long as I kept putting bullets in it, god I miss that gun!  I always liked an exposed hammer but agree that if you are well trained with the weapon it doesn't matter enough to be a deal breaker, safety is between the ears not on the hardware, I don't use one.  tailor your choice to your situation and needs and have fun and may you never Need it
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »


...I'm perfectly happy with five shots in a defense situation.  The odds of an army attacking you are pretty slim.  I don't miss.


I have no use for a semi-auto pistol as anything other than a plinker.  They are too complicated to run in the middle of the night when half asleep.  There are too many "states" that they can be in.  I prefer a modern DA revolver (hammer blocked when the trigger is not pulled) that has all chambers loaded.  The other thing I hate about semi-autos is, since I handload, I like to load for accuracy and power.  Instead, with a semi-auto, I have to load for only one criteria--how it runs the action.  That just seems SO wrong to me....



MB....You don't miss?  REALLY? C'mon now!...Throw is stress and adrenaline, not to mention the pucker factor, and trust me....EVERYONE MISSES!  grin

As for semi-auto's being too complicated and having too many "states" they can be in.  huh

Today's DA only semi's such as the Glock are as straight forward and simple to operate as any revolver.  If I pull the trigger, it shoots...If I don't, it doesn't...Can't get much simpler than that.  And while 5 rounds "might" be enough, when it comes to extra rounds, I subscribe to the "better to have them, and not need them, then need them, and not have them" theory.

Not to mention, should you need to reload.  Doing so with a semi-auto involves gross motor skills, whereas a revolver involves more fine motor skills...which will be one of the first things to go in a stress filled situation.
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 05:13:23 PM »

I love my Sig for smooth accurate shooting. But for everyday carry I have an old S&W38. It's not accurate over 20' and it's not fun to shoot, but it fits comfortably in my waistband so I don't think twice about carrying it.

For self-defense purposes the best gun is the one you're carrying-- as opposed to the one that's sitting in your safe at home. If you knew when you were going to be mugged, you'd bring along your biggest gun-- hell, you'd bring along Seal Team Six, if you could. But one of the unpleasant things about muggers is that they don't make appointments. So you need to think about whether the gun you choose is one you'd be comfortable carrying around routinely. If not, it still might be fun to have for the range, but that's another question.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 05:20:50 PM »

Beemaster, everyone has their preferences and most are very passionate about their handguns. My choices are 2 very proven designs. The single action 1911A1 with the standard mods and the 92f. One for knock down and one for capacity. If I could only have 1 it would be the 1911 single stack and carried in the "Locked, Cocked and Ready to Rock" configuration.  I cycle 230 grain ball only with a firm grip. Never had a misfeed.
The choice is yours the importance of practice and weapon familiarity can't be overstated. I don't view handguns as a long range weapon. They are for very close and personal defence their use must be second nature.
Just my views.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »

>MB....You don't miss?  REALLY? C'mon now!...Throw is stress and adrenaline, not to mention the pucker factor, and trust me....EVERYONE MISSES!

Not with a pistol at close range, no.  With a revolver, iron sites, shooting at empty 12 gauge shells at 200 yards, I miss a little over half the time...
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 09:21:59 PM »

The closest group that an average human can hold, even with a rifle and from a shooting bench and using sandbags, is about 1/2 M.O.A. (Minute of Angle, the traditional measurement of accuracy). All the inconsistencies of the weapon and ammunition are added onto that 1/2 M.O.A.

The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

A 12 gauge hull at 200 yards subtends about 1/2 M.O.A. A revolver/shooter combination capable of that is spectacularly good. Better than I've ever seen.

But it's also irrelevant in a defensive handgun encounter. When it's dark, your heart is pounding so hard that you've lost your fine-motor skills, and both you and your assailant are moving violently, accurate shooting is literally impossible. Even Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday had a lot more misses than hits.
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2013, 03:20:16 PM »

>The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

I don't think they are nearly picky enough.  I have no use for a rifle that sloppy.
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 04:33:32 PM »

>The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

I don't think they are nearly picky enough.  I have no use for a rifle that sloppy.

Neither do I. Here's an excerpt from a blog post I wrote a few years ago about whether or not service rifles were capable of 1 M.O.A. accuracy:


"The best that most unmodified military rifles are capable of with standard ball ammo is 3-4" groups.

Expect at least double that from AK47's.

The army considers 4" groups from it's new M4's normal and adequate.

When the M1 Garand, famous for it's accuracy, was factory new the army tested them in machine rests, which eliminate inconsistencies. The average 100 yard group was 1 3/4 inches. Amazing, but well over 1 M.O.A. even without the human factor added in.

British Enfield sniper rifles were specially selected and tuned and were expected to shoot groups that were 1" wide and 3" high.

From Wikipedia:

"A 2008 United States military market survey for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR) calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... meaning the horizontal spread and hence extreme spread are allowed to exceed 1 MOA ... In 2009 a United States Special Operations Command market survey calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... Meanwhile current US Sniper Systems ... do not meet this requirement."

(And remember that those specs are for sniper rifles, not rifles made by the lowest bidder and handed out to the average grunt.)"

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 07:44:26 AM »

For anyone interested in long range revolver shooting.  The best position I've found is laying on your back (a back rest is helpful, but not necessary) with the pistol resting on the outside of your knee which is leaning in.  In other words if you are right handed your knee is leaning to the left.  The cylinder gap allows some lead and spark out, so don't wear pants you are attached to and REALLY don't wear shorts.  Without a rest it's hopeless.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 09:26:26 AM »



    have an unmodified M1 Garand built by springfield.. 244K serial number. it HAS been oiled.. meaning the stock, it has a clear coat of some type on it.  Unwilling to chip any of it off I do not yet know what it is.. due to age I assume it is something like spar varnish..   Anyhow, the inspectors cartouche can still be plainly seen.    The rifle was fired VERY little and obviously never used in battle. I have used this rifle in competitions and produced groups NEARING one inch simply by playing with loads and bullet sizes to find what the gun liked to be fed the most.  I have never hit one inch, but will continue to try to do so without modifying the gun in any way.   The Garand is arguably my favorite rifle of all I own.
   Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff..  he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.
   Garands are heavy, and not nearly as easy to care for as an AR. The clip is ungainly and only holds 8 rounds.. but man are they a PLEASURE to shoot!   I love my old Thumbuster.
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How is it that 900 HP isn't any more exciting than opening a hive for inspection?
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 11:05:24 AM »

  Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff..  he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.

Any police officer that "knows his stuff", doesn't want to face any of those, any day of the week.  grin
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 11:34:04 AM by Moots » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »

... I have never hit one inch...

When a Special Forces SEAL Ninja Sniper tells me his military rifle will shoot one M.O.A. groups, I slap a hundred dollar bill on the bench and tell him I'd like to see it. They huff and puff about their "honor", but they never take the wager.
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