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Author Topic: Oh... the beauty of guns  (Read 2423 times)
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« on: September 20, 2013, 12:18:32 AM »

Anyone following my other post on TIME TO GET A HAND GUN knows I'm studying the nearly indestructible $125 Hi-Point to the most decked out Sig Sauers and everything in between.

An evolution of sort has happened, let's call it since you are still likely months from a firearms ID and handgun permits - the is a whole world of beauty and functionality in handgun (sorry not done much with long guns) but to see the amazing feats of John Moses Browning to the simplicity of Glocks, my eyes have opened to the incredible and often subtle differences.

I can really see how people can relate to the weapons of choice, what sparks their interest and why people collect guns for so many reasons. I've never been a collector of anything really, never had interest in sports and bubblegum cards was just an expensive way to buy gum - lol.

But I have watch many videos of complete strip-down of many different guns and amazed at how each resolved the needs of design to accomplish what they meant to achieve in the final product. Seeing gun-smiths doing repairs and modifications is fascinating to me, seeing how complicated a tear-down can be on one gun and how simple it is on another makes me want to see what the thinking process was that created the differences in design.

I just know (without ever touching one) I could field-strip a Glock in about 10 seconds blind-folded. I don't think I can say that about any other gun I have seen. Doesn't make it better, but it sure makes sense what the popularity in much of law enforcement is.

I just was wondering what you look for in a handgun? If you had a short list what are the most important features of a handgun to you. I don't believe accuracy is a real issue (people debate this all over the internet) but any gun can shoot well in the hands of a good shooter. Good shooter of course are people who learn quickly to compensate for any sight setting issues, windage, trigger pull, reset from recoil, inconsistencies in ammo - all those things that I'm sure come pretty natural with practice - my manufacturers find out pretty quick if there is a flaw in design, and good manufacturers attend to the issues quickly and free of charge. So taking out clunkers, guns are pretty accurate critters.

So what are the things that really selling points to you, and what are real deal-breakers in options or designs?

I'll throw my TOTALLY Internet learned thinking out there, I'll say I'm over 1000 hours of videos by respected Youtubers who are educators on weapons and not just fans of particular models showing off their toys.

1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded? I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me. No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs. I'll chime in on this, I don't want a full sized gun - mid-size seems ideal since I've shied away from the minis a bit, but understand the need for conceal carry, etc..

Is there a perfect gun out the for you? Do you have it already. And are manufacturers missing the boat completely on some feature you would love to have stock on a gun - even after market, I mean do we really need a blue-tooth enabled pistol/cellphone - are we that addicted to technology that if a gun had 4G service, we'd want it?

Just carrying on here, just finished 16 hour shift and a bit loopy, but I'm interested, what make your favorite gun, your favorite gun. And if it isn't, what would make it so.
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OldMech
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 01:17:48 AM »

hmmm.. Having owned and worked on most all of them, I have several I like.
   I think the most accurate handgun i have ever owned was a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag with a 4 power scope. I could hit a soda can at 100 yards 4 out of 5 shots with it.. but it was not a practical defense gun..
   Second to that was my Desert eagle in .50 AE..    It had a Bushnel Holo sight on it and outshot friends rifles, and I still have the proof of that today.. but again, not a practical defense gun..
   Beretta 92fs (Italy) was superbly dependable and shot well. A lot of accessories for it, including large capacity mags.. I guess it would be my second choice.
   My first will always be the 1911.  It can be field stripped faster than the glock, and has a LOT of goodies and accessories. More than most any other handgun out there.  With an aftermarket frame/wider grip you can double stack for extra capacity, and they will fit larger hands better. Get rid if the grip safety. Ramp and polish the throat, open the ejection port a bit, and hone the mag well so mags drop free when you push the release..   Add adjustable sights, adjustable trigger and you have a custom gun for less than you will pay outright for most other guns..  AND, with the exception of the new frame those are things anyone can do..
  I used to buy Essex stainless frames a dozen at a time, and then order Mil Spec surplus parts kits. Bead blast the frame, and BLUE the slide etc.. for a really sharp two tone gun.  I could fit, assemble, and sell them for under 400 dollars.
 With the additions I mentioned above, they were still under 600 dollars with no true limit on how far you could take them if you wanted to..    Stock from the factory they function well, but.. to me, no gun from the factory functions the way "I" think it should, but they do have to draw the line between profit and quality somewhere...
   I have a lot of stories, but will desist...  Another time!!   LOL

   I have had a couple of Glocks for personal guns, a 17 and a 19, and worked on the guns from the local police department.
   AS IS from the factory (at that time) about 50% of them did not feed well, and some of them liked to stovepipe. It didnt take much to fix them.. but the point is, they shouldn't NEED fixed..   I gave up my license 13 years ago. I would like to think they fixed those problems by now!!

  On another note;
  It has been my experience that semi auto handguns are PICKY about what you feed them..   Obviously in a home defense situation you want full power high expanding ammo.. but when your practicing, you will want to shoot CHEAP ammo..   
   YOUR gun may not like the cheap ammo, it may not feed it well depending on the bullet type you use, and the powder charge may not have enough GRUNT to cycle the action well...

   You want to make sure that what you will have in the clip at HOME, when you will need it desperately, feeds PERFECTLY every time..   
   At the range, you can afford to fix an occasional jam, stuck round or stovepipe. Dont let inconsistencies with the cheap ammo degrade your opinion of the gun. Find the ammunition it likes to eat the most. Practice with it, so You are confident in the ammo AND the gun, THEN play with cheaper ammunition to help familiarize yourself.
  If you like the Glock Great!!  Just make sure whatever gun you choose functions correctly with the ammunition you intend to use when push comes to shove.

   
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 01:58:24 AM »

I have and have shot a few, my choice of the ones I have is an Ithaca 45 auto.  I have a Ruger 22 for plinking.  Shooting at the range is different that walking in the woods and shooting.  You get to where you don't aim say at a snake, you just point and shoot.  I can hit better with the 45 than I can with the 22, and have shot snakes no aim with the 22.  Whatever you decide to get, get use to it.  And like Old Mech try different loads.  A good friend shoots is matches here and internationally.  He gave me some rounds that he shot in matches, wouldn't cycle mine.  Good luck with your search, and may you never need it for defense.



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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 07:28:40 AM »


1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

If your concealed-carry weapon is uncomfortably heavy (or large) you will look for (and find) excuses to not carry it.

2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

Ammo in a gunfight is like gum, you should bring enough for everybody. Most defensive handgun encounters are over in less than three rounds and three seconds, but at least one spare magazine is always a good idea, since the magazine is the most likely component of a pistol to fail or be misplaced. If you drop a mag during a malfunction drill or a magazine exchange, you are unlikely to retrieve it quickly. Take a course where you do those things in realistic, high-stress, low-light, dynamic situations and you'll learn to just abandon a dropped mag and go on to your next one.

3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded? I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

"Locked and loaded" is a frequently misunderstood phrase. It means "safety on and a round in the chamber". I carry modern DAO pistols with the safety off, if they even have a safety. A safety is something you will have to fumble with at a time when your fine motor skills are seriously degraded. And if you don't have a round in the chamber, you may as well be carrying a rock.

Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Sights are very rarely used during defensive shootings. You are literally, physically incapable of focusing on sights once you reach a certain adrenaline level. You will focus on nothing but your assailant.

Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

All else being equal (though it never is), I like an external hammer.

Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me. No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs. I'll chime in on this, I don't want a full sized gun - mid-size seems ideal since I've shied away from the minis a bit, but understand the need for conceal carry, etc..

A full-sized handgun is much easier to shoot well than a compact. But the whole point of a defensive handgun is to have it on you when you need it, and if it's too large or heavy to be comfortable and concealable, you won't. The next time someone tells you how wonderful 1911's are for concealed carry, ask to see theirs. It's almost a guarantee that it'll be home in their safe. "Well, I was only going out to the store, so I didn't put it on..."

Is there a perfect gun out the for you? Do you have it already. And are manufacturers missing the boat completely on some feature you would love to have stock on a gun - even after market, I mean do we really need a blue-tooth enabled pistol/cellphone - are we that addicted to technology that if a gun had 4G service, we'd want it?

My favorite fighting handgun on the market right now is the H&K USPc. But it's too large and heavy for everyday concealed carry. The one I almost always have on my belt is a Kahr P9. Sometimes it's a Kahr PM9. Sometimes the former is on my belt and the latter is on my ankle. The PM9 can use the P9's magazines, so that helps keep things simple.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 07:54:24 AM »

beemaster,
I think we all assume it, but #1 on my list would have to be reliability.  If you're not confident that your weapon of choice is going to function the way it's designed to, there's no point in owning it.

Other than that I would simply add that I pretty much agree and second everything Oblio said, I'm also a fan of the Kahr for concealed carry...Personally, I have the PM40, I number of guys with our department have the P40, and my brother has the PM45.  On the external hammer question....it isn't a deal maker or deal breaker for me.

As I've said before, I'm also a huge fan of the Glock, trust me, if the issues OldMech mentioned were still issues, they wouldn't have the market share they have.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 08:42:55 AM »

You'll need to purchase multiple guns to satisfy your needs!
My Sigs all have their purpose, GSR .45 is my wake up and get the shotgun, side arm for hunting and car based adventures.
The 228 is great for concealed carry in casual wear and the 290 much smaller for shorts/t shirt concealed.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 08:57:13 AM »

<Whatever you decide to get, get use to it - Joe D>  That's ssssooooo important.

It was once said, "Finding your pistol should be as easy and common as finding your wallet" You don't have to think much when you grab your wallet. Your pistol should be the same way.

Of course others have said; "You need a pistol to buy time to get to your long barrel."

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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 09:05:29 AM »

>1) weight - there is a huge difference between a 19.5oz handgun and a 32oz one - then throw in a full magazine and that all stainless and aluminum pistol isn't as function as it is pretty. When shooting 50-100 rounds at the range seems like work and not training, weight becomes an issue.

I think if you are carrying it weight is also a big issue (light being preferred) but shooting a high powered gun, weight is also an issue for recoil.  (yes I know technically it does not change it, but it does spread it over time).  I want stopping power, and that takes some weight to absorb it.

>2) capacity - I have been all over the spectrum here while studying handguns. First thinking a CCW is a nice home defense weapon (and likely is) but having a 6+1 limit when you can have a double stack holding 15 rounds, I'll take the 15 round gun any-time if only for saving on reloading at the range. Better said, in home defense or range shooting, more ammo is a good thing.

I'm perfectly happy with five shots in a defense situation.  The odds of an army attacking you are pretty slim.  I don't miss.

>3) Action - whether SA, DA, DA-SA or 1.5 as I've heard Glock referred to many times due to the half cocking of their striker fire - to me means what feels right to the owner. Most (many) DA pistols don't have a trigger safety, is that is real concern, do you prefer carrying locked and loaded?

I have no use for a semi-auto pistol as anything other than a plinker.  They are too complicated to run in the middle of the night when half asleep.  There are too many "states" that they can be in.  I prefer a modern DA revolver (hammer blocked when the trigger is not pulled) that has all chambers loaded.  The other thing I hate about semi-autos is, since I handload, I like to load for accuracy and power.  Instead, with a semi-auto, I have to load for only one criteria--how it runs the action.  That just seems SO wrong to me.

> I'm not weighing on on what I think makes the most sense, but I will say that early on in my research, a trigger safety was mandatory - it now seems like just something else in the way of firing if you are comfortable with your gun.

The concept of a safety makes sense on certain firearms in certain conditions.  It makes no sense on other firearms.  There is no reason for a safety on a DA revolver.  No reason for a safety on a DA only semi auto.  No reason for a safety on a lever action rifle with an exposed hammer, or a falling block with an exposed hammer if they have a hammer block when the trigger is not pulled (typical on modern guns).  In these cases they only overly complicate things and make one more thing you could forget or could go wrong.  Nothing quite as frustrating when hunting or defending your self as pulling the trigger and nothing happens.  In the case of hunting it can cost you food.  In the case of self defense it can cost your life.  Any hammerless gun with the possibility of having a cocked hammer needs a safety and you need to have an ingrained protocol on how you handle it so you don't find yourself pulling the trigger with the safety on...

>Sights and lights - I love several of the tru-glo type sights available and think I'd have installed a set on whatever I get. But there are internal lasers that replace the recoil spring and guide rod (smart idea as long as it mimics the original spring and rod) flashlights on your Picatinny rails, all kind of add-on that I don't think would be a deal breaker, but worth considering.

I've always thought a laser sight would be cool.  I'll probably never buy one...  You can get used to any of them.  You can't see any of them in the dark if they are lighted in some way.  But most self defense situations are too close to matter.

>Hammer or Striker fired - again, something I though that was a given was an external hammer, not so much any more. If a gun you liked had one or the other of these would it be a deal breaker?

That depends on the gun, of course.  A large DA revolver should have a hammer.  A DA pocket revolver could do without one so it doesn't catch on your pocket.

>Does SIZE REALLY MATTER - big handed people fumbling with a sub-mini compact pistol sound torturous to me.

The main use for a small pistol is concealability.  They are not more shootable unless your hands are really small.

>No less so that a handgun that seems like it should have tripod drop down legs.

I have a few with bi-pods and scopes, but not tri-pods... nice for long range shooting.  I've done a lot of long range even with revolvers.  It's fun shooting at shot gun shells at 200 yards with a high powered revolver.  You miss often enough to be a challenge and hit often enough to be fun.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 02:12:47 PM »

since my "opponents" are likely to be 4 legged rather than 2 I go for the largest most reliable available,  for me with my old felony until I can get that cleared up I use a black powder .44 Remington,  if I need more than 6 rounds in a "gunfight" there is going to be at least 2 guns laying around that are no longer being used.  first rule of a gunfight is bring a gun!  after that every thing becomes academic,  carry what you are comfortable with, and always carry it!  before my felony I carried either a ruger security 6 357 with 2 speed loaders or a ruger black hawk 357.  that black hawk would put 5 of 6 in a 9 inch paper plate at 50 yards as long as I kept putting bullets in it, god I miss that gun!  I always liked an exposed hammer but agree that if you are well trained with the weapon it doesn't matter enough to be a deal breaker, safety is between the ears not on the hardware, I don't use one.  tailor your choice to your situation and needs and have fun and may you never Need it
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »


...I'm perfectly happy with five shots in a defense situation.  The odds of an army attacking you are pretty slim.  I don't miss.


I have no use for a semi-auto pistol as anything other than a plinker.  They are too complicated to run in the middle of the night when half asleep.  There are too many "states" that they can be in.  I prefer a modern DA revolver (hammer blocked when the trigger is not pulled) that has all chambers loaded.  The other thing I hate about semi-autos is, since I handload, I like to load for accuracy and power.  Instead, with a semi-auto, I have to load for only one criteria--how it runs the action.  That just seems SO wrong to me....



MB....You don't miss?  REALLY? C'mon now!...Throw is stress and adrenaline, not to mention the pucker factor, and trust me....EVERYONE MISSES!  grin

As for semi-auto's being too complicated and having too many "states" they can be in.  huh

Today's DA only semi's such as the Glock are as straight forward and simple to operate as any revolver.  If I pull the trigger, it shoots...If I don't, it doesn't...Can't get much simpler than that.  And while 5 rounds "might" be enough, when it comes to extra rounds, I subscribe to the "better to have them, and not need them, then need them, and not have them" theory.

Not to mention, should you need to reload.  Doing so with a semi-auto involves gross motor skills, whereas a revolver involves more fine motor skills...which will be one of the first things to go in a stress filled situation.
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 05:13:23 PM »

I love my Sig for smooth accurate shooting. But for everyday carry I have an old S&W38. It's not accurate over 20' and it's not fun to shoot, but it fits comfortably in my waistband so I don't think twice about carrying it.

For self-defense purposes the best gun is the one you're carrying-- as opposed to the one that's sitting in your safe at home. If you knew when you were going to be mugged, you'd bring along your biggest gun-- hell, you'd bring along Seal Team Six, if you could. But one of the unpleasant things about muggers is that they don't make appointments. So you need to think about whether the gun you choose is one you'd be comfortable carrying around routinely. If not, it still might be fun to have for the range, but that's another question.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 05:20:50 PM »

Beemaster, everyone has their preferences and most are very passionate about their handguns. My choices are 2 very proven designs. The single action 1911A1 with the standard mods and the 92f. One for knock down and one for capacity. If I could only have 1 it would be the 1911 single stack and carried in the "Locked, Cocked and Ready to Rock" configuration.  I cycle 230 grain ball only with a firm grip. Never had a misfeed.
The choice is yours the importance of practice and weapon familiarity can't be overstated. I don't view handguns as a long range weapon. They are for very close and personal defence their use must be second nature.
Just my views.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »

>MB....You don't miss?  REALLY? C'mon now!...Throw is stress and adrenaline, not to mention the pucker factor, and trust me....EVERYONE MISSES!

Not with a pistol at close range, no.  With a revolver, iron sites, shooting at empty 12 gauge shells at 200 yards, I miss a little over half the time...
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 09:21:59 PM »

The closest group that an average human can hold, even with a rifle and from a shooting bench and using sandbags, is about 1/2 M.O.A. (Minute of Angle, the traditional measurement of accuracy). All the inconsistencies of the weapon and ammunition are added onto that 1/2 M.O.A.

The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

A 12 gauge hull at 200 yards subtends about 1/2 M.O.A. A revolver/shooter combination capable of that is spectacularly good. Better than I've ever seen.

But it's also irrelevant in a defensive handgun encounter. When it's dark, your heart is pounding so hard that you've lost your fine-motor skills, and both you and your assailant are moving violently, accurate shooting is literally impossible. Even Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday had a lot more misses than hits.
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2013, 03:20:16 PM »

>The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

I don't think they are nearly picky enough.  I have no use for a rifle that sloppy.
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 04:33:32 PM »

>The army considers 4 M.O.A. groups from it's new M4 rifles normal and adequate.

I don't think they are nearly picky enough.  I have no use for a rifle that sloppy.

Neither do I. Here's an excerpt from a blog post I wrote a few years ago about whether or not service rifles were capable of 1 M.O.A. accuracy:


"The best that most unmodified military rifles are capable of with standard ball ammo is 3-4" groups.

Expect at least double that from AK47's.

The army considers 4" groups from it's new M4's normal and adequate.

When the M1 Garand, famous for it's accuracy, was factory new the army tested them in machine rests, which eliminate inconsistencies. The average 100 yard group was 1 3/4 inches. Amazing, but well over 1 M.O.A. even without the human factor added in.

British Enfield sniper rifles were specially selected and tuned and were expected to shoot groups that were 1" wide and 3" high.

From Wikipedia:

"A 2008 United States military market survey for a Precision Sniper Rifle (PSR) calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... meaning the horizontal spread and hence extreme spread are allowed to exceed 1 MOA ... In 2009 a United States Special Operations Command market survey calls for 1 MOA ... extreme vertical spread ... Meanwhile current US Sniper Systems ... do not meet this requirement."

(And remember that those specs are for sniper rifles, not rifles made by the lowest bidder and handed out to the average grunt.)"

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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 07:44:26 AM »

For anyone interested in long range revolver shooting.  The best position I've found is laying on your back (a back rest is helpful, but not necessary) with the pistol resting on the outside of your knee which is leaning in.  In other words if you are right handed your knee is leaning to the left.  The cylinder gap allows some lead and spark out, so don't wear pants you are attached to and REALLY don't wear shorts.  Without a rest it's hopeless.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 09:26:26 AM »



    have an unmodified M1 Garand built by springfield.. 244K serial number. it HAS been oiled.. meaning the stock, it has a clear coat of some type on it.  Unwilling to chip any of it off I do not yet know what it is.. due to age I assume it is something like spar varnish..   Anyhow, the inspectors cartouche can still be plainly seen.    The rifle was fired VERY little and obviously never used in battle. I have used this rifle in competitions and produced groups NEARING one inch simply by playing with loads and bullet sizes to find what the gun liked to be fed the most.  I have never hit one inch, but will continue to try to do so without modifying the gun in any way.   The Garand is arguably my favorite rifle of all I own.
   Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff..  he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.
   Garands are heavy, and not nearly as easy to care for as an AR. The clip is ungainly and only holds 8 rounds.. but man are they a PLEASURE to shoot!   I love my old Thumbuster.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 11:05:24 AM »

  Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff..  he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.

Any police officer that "knows his stuff", doesn't want to face any of those, any day of the week.  grin
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »

... I have never hit one inch...

When a Special Forces SEAL Ninja Sniper tells me his military rifle will shoot one M.O.A. groups, I slap a hundred dollar bill on the bench and tell him I'd like to see it. They huff and puff about their "honor", but they never take the wager.
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 03:45:43 PM »

There is something wrong with people that have settled the "best gun question" for themselves.

Even if there was such a gun you would still need to find a holster and belt.
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2013, 04:33:55 PM »

There is something wrong with people that have settled the "best gun question" for themselves.

Even if there was such a gun you would still need to find a holster and belt.

There must be something wrong with me, I've settled so comfortably on these that everything else collects dust:

For everyday concealed carry: Kahr P9 and Mitch Rosen leather, Federal Critical Defense. (No snap, outside the belt, strong side.)

For winter or open carry in the woods: H&K USPc .40, Milt Sparks leather, Speer Gold Dots. (Horsehide, no snap, outside the belt, strong side.)

For a back-up: Kahr PM9, Alessi ankle holster, Federal Critical Defense.

For muzzleloader season: Thompson Center Encore .50, Leupold 1-5X, 290 grain monolithic copper Barnes TE-Z bullets with sabots on top of 90 grains (by volume) of Blackhorn 209.  

For rifle season: vintage Sako .308, vintage Sako one-piece rings, Mannlicher stock, Leupold 1-5X, handloads with Barnes monolithic bullets.

For everything from grouse to ducks: S&W Elite 20 gauge side-by-side, straight grip, double triggers, 28" barrels, imp & mod chokes.

Small game and pests: Ruger 77-22, Tacsol barrel, Leupold 2-7X, Jard trigger, Winchester Dynapoints.

Plinker/survival rifle for the bush plane: Ruger 10-22, integrally suppressed YMW barrel, Clark Custom trigger components, NDS Picatinny rail with back-up iron sights, Aimpoint, Winchester Dynapoints.

For service rifle competitions: a Garand and an M1A, both built by Fulton Armory.

For home defense: AR15, 16" pencil barrel, slabside upper, collapsible stock, C-mag, Trijicon ACOG, M193.
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2013, 11:00:27 PM »

  Talk to any police officer that knows his stuff..  he will tell you he would face an AR or an AK any day of the week rather than face a Garand.

Any police officer that "knows his stuff", doesn't want to face any of those, any day of the week.  grin


   I guess I cant argue with that....
   The point was more along the lines of power and penetration. I have in my possession a hardened steel plate that is capable of stopping a .50 Cal Browning round. The plate is cracked from proving this..  The plate WAS welded to a coil spring from a car with a disk blade under it to keep it upright.. the .50 blew the welds off and flipped the plate (52 lbs worth) upside down behind the spring.  AR's AK's etc.. hit it and splatter leaving a silvery pattern.. the Garand ball ammo (Military surplus) actually leaves a divot in the plate just big enough for me to fit the tip of my pinky finger in.
   
   My brother in law was in the special forces, and before he was killed in a jump, we talked a lot about guns. The satisfaction rating of "issue" sniper weapons was very low. A rifle that shot 3 MOA at one hundred yards made hitting a target out beyond three hundred yards a matter of luck and prayer. Many of the newer weapons were better than that, but you had to be a member of the "Elite" to get those weapons issued to you..    He complained often that it was hard to BE good enough with the weapons they were issued. It was a revelation to me, as I would consider that those boys ALWAYS got the best equipment...

   When I qualified with the M16  I took apart all the weapons in our squad, and assembled ONE rifle that we all used to qualify with. Only one of us didnt make expert...  The weapons we were issued in the SeaBees were hand me downs from the Marines, and more or less worn out...    which reminds me.. I think there is still a bit of outstanding debt on that score...   Might be hard to collect after 30 + years though Sad
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 07:36:56 AM »

Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me.
Necessary maybe in the case of a dangerous or sick animal, but killing is not beautiful.

Lone
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 01:10:03 PM »

There is something wrong with people that have settled the "best gun question" for themselves.

Even if there was such a gun you would still need to find a holster and belt.

There must be something wrong with me, I've settled so comfortably on these that everything else collects dust:

For everyday concealed carry: Kahr P9 and Mitch Rosen leather, Federal Critical Defense. (No snap, outside the belt, strong side.)

For winter or open carry in the woods: H&K USPc .40, Milt Sparks leather, Speer Gold Dots. (Horsehide, no snap, outside the belt, strong side.)

For a back-up: Kahr PM9, Alessi ankle holster, Federal Critical Defense.

For muzzleloader season: Thompson Center Encore .50, Leupold 1-5X, 290 grain monolithic copper Barnes TE-Z bullets with sabots on top of 90 grains (by volume) of Blackhorn 209.  

For rifle season: vintage Sako .308, vintage Sako one-piece rings, Mannlicher stock, Leupold 1-5X, handloads with Barnes monolithic bullets.

For everything from grouse to ducks: S&W Elite 20 gauge side-by-side, straight grip, double triggers, 28" barrels, imp & mod chokes.

Small game and pests: Ruger 77-22, Tacsol barrel, Leupold 2-7X, Jard trigger, Winchester Dynapoints.

Plinker/survival rifle for the bush plane: Ruger 10-22, integrally suppressed YMW barrel, Clark Custom trigger components, NDS Picatinny rail with back-up iron sights, Aimpoint, Winchester Dynapoints.

For service rifle competitions: a Garand and an M1A, both built by Fulton Armory.

For home defense: AR15, 16" pencil barrel, slabside upper, collapsible stock, C-mag, Trijicon ACOG, M193.

You have a well thought out arsenal and nearly a gun for every need. What are you going to do at the amusement/water park? I don't see anything on your list I'd trust with my life after a couple runs down the water slide.
I also can't believe that you every time you pick up one of those guns you don't think something like the following...
I like this gun but the new model sure is slick.
One of these days I'm going to take a file to this.
These grips need.....
This holster is too....
I should rebuild this....
If my friends ask me to help move something and accidentally see that I'm carrying a 9mm I'll tell them the .45 is in the shop and I had to borrow the wife's gun!!:)
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 04:56:02 PM »

I need to read page 2 of this post, I'm still steamin that I wrote a lengthy reply and even copied it to the clipboard - then THOUGHT I had sent it. When I checked and saw it didn't post, I tried pasting and OF COURSE, I had something else pasted in the clipboard by then, ugh.

It really dealt with function vs. bling. If (as in NJ) where you can under perfect conditions get on handgun every 31 days, collecting isn't easy even with a fat wallet. I see several handgunds I aim on test-firing, and some that I know I wouldn't mind dropping on the ground or at least not babying it and others that you'd think of wearing gloves just to keep finger prints off - lol.

All that said, let me read here, and when I get typing time, I have a very long but I think entertaining tale to share.

QUESTION THOUGH: anyone out there have experience with a Glock 19 shooting JHP 124g grain? with all my reading, I think this might be a very solid home protection combo - seen some ballistic gel videos and this cartridge makes up hitting exactly where you aim, and although super-sonic in most cases I think for my home and neighborhood, this will be a safer round to miss with, as well as a devastating round to stop a threat in its tracks.

Promise, more to come.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 11:22:48 PM »

Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me.
Necessary maybe in the case of a dangerous or sick animal, but killing is not beautiful.

Lone

  hmmm... be nice....

   I have owned in excess of two hundred guns, and still own a few. Of the ones I do own. only ONE of them kills, and thats during hunting season. The rest are PURELY for pleasure or self defense...

    NO GUN, kills by itself..  I have never met a psychopath firearm. I would go so far as to say that every gun i have ever seen, worked on or sold is totally benign... Kinda like my truck..   (It has killed more deer than my rifle)

    Have you watched Deer die of sickness and disease? Raccoons? ANY animal die a slow lingering death?   

  <Necessary maybe in the case of a dangerous or sick animal, but killing is not beautiful.>

   Did he say KILLING was beautiful?    So...  we should not kill, UNTIL they become sick?  Well, come out to the country. I can show you 50 deer in one evening of puttering around. I can show you HURT people and destroyed cars.
   IF.. we were to do away with hunting season this fall..  those deer would be two hundred (That you can see) next year, and eight hundred the following year, and the population would continue to grow, until some disease or sickness began to kill them off. THEN its OK to shoot them? After they begin to suffer? AFTER the accidents go through the roof and HUNDREDS are hurt or killed?
   OH yes.. That is when the department of game and inland fisheries hires bounty hunters to thin the numbers.. paid for by OUR tax dollars....
   
   I know you cannot see the necessity, and am probably talking mostly to myself. But the bottom line is, GUNS are no more dangerous than any other inanimate object, until a person picks them up.

  YOU CANNOT GET RID OF THEM!!!!!!

   Pass laws making guns illegal, and they will FLOOD into this country JUST like illegal drugs..
   Wait.. DRUGS that are illegal.. ILLEGAL!!!  That means that there are NONE right? Because they are illegal, NO ONE has them so the problem is solved right? RIGHT???
   Making guns illegal just opens the door for the people who do not care about laws. THEY KNOW, you do not have one, so they no longer fear you...
   

   <Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me.>

   Funny thing... of the hundreds I have owned, worked on, and sold.. NOT ONE of them has EVER tried to kill me..   I have spent SO MANY BEAUTIFUL afternoons target shooting and enjoying my guns with my family and friends...   None of their guns ever tried to kill them either...

   Of them all...   ONE will kill during hunting season. ONE I hope never to have to use to kill, and the rest of them will never kill anything.
   Some of them are custom made (By me) and they are exceedingly beautiful.
   So basically..  I disagree with you completely.
   But then... thats why we live in this country right? So we can agree to disagree..    WHY do you think we are free to have such a disagreement?
 
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 01:27:08 AM »

Old Mech,
I don't think the author of this topic wants it to be a heated argument about the pros and cons of gun control, so I won't respond to all your points in public.  But I feel that if I think something is so so wrong then I should say something and not let you all think I am silent because I agree with you. Maybe you think I am not nice because you actually changed around what I said..I thought I made it clear I agree with culling animals if necessary..but my only point I wish to make here is that I don't think it is beautiful and actually that concept makes me feel a bit sickened.  I'll give you my views privately if you wish.

Lone
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 07:14:55 AM »

There is absolutely beauty in firearms. I think of my side-by-side 20 gauge, for example, as "functional art". The figure in the walnut stock, the colors in the case hardening, the borderless hand checkering, the engraving, the incredibly precise tolerances, the history and evolution of double-barrel shotguns. Every season when I take it out after having not used it for a while, I'm amazed all over again that it fits me so well and feels so light and lively. The dogs get excited because they know what's going to happen, and I take pleasure in that. And when a duck folds up in a puff of feathers, there's beauty and deep satisfaction in that, too.
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 11:49:31 PM »

Lone,

I know a horrific tragedy occurred not that many years ago in Australia, horrific enough to change Australia's government's thoughts and the minds of (most) of the people on guns ownership - especially what the leftist government here calls Assault Weapons.

We have had several horrific mass killings ourselves in resent years, many of which licensed, sane, gun carrying people could have prevented. It was a premiere of a Batman movie and people were dressed as different characters, but In no way should someone walk in and be able to fire 100+ rounds of bullets in a movie theater or anywhere: in states with citizens with conceal carry permits, the shooter would have been dead long before the horror played out there. The Aurora shooter after firing all those, killing 12 and injuring 70, then made it out the door and changed clothes, returned to the theater and set off tear gas like canisters - he made it to his car BEFORE two officers figuring out there was something wrong.

My own opinion on weapons allowed by our laws differs from many, I believe if the law says you can have such a weapon, then you CAN have such a weapon. Here in New Jersey laws are very strict compared to many states, and frankly I am glad that is so - our state being the highest populated per square mile state is just one reason. But personal defense is a RIGHT which can be taken away for many reasons; ex-felons, dis-honorable discharged military, mental health reasons, etc., but I have never believed that someone does not have the right to protect themselves and others. And taking Rights from citizens never leads to a safer, freer nation.

Your point "Guns kill: don't sound beautiful to me" obviously said to stir the pot a little, is just not true - people USE guns to kill and that can be a horrible thing yes, but it also can save lives just as easily. And I see no use for law enforcement without guns and hopefully better guns that the bad guys carry.

But back to the topic as I started it, whether the technical design, often the brilliance of simplicity - guns made today that haven't needed modifications for a hundred years and longer, I find amazing. And then the crafting, carvings, true art work that still retains its functionality. There is not just death and sorrow, wars and genocide, there is security and a way to feed ones family. Even today, it still takes months to grow a tomato, but you could have venison on the grill tonight and a moose to feed many people for an entire Winter.

Sarin Gas is something designed for one reason, to kill people - and there are many other weapons that are offensive only, but to take a Country as big as Australia with 22 million people (which is land mass is very close in size to the US) where here we have 310 million people, alone changes the rules dramatically of the use and need for possessing firearms. Guns done sit there holding grudges, plotting crimes, begging for just one more bullet so it can off the entire family - twisted people do. A gun is to blame as a hammer planted into a neighbors skull, or a screw-driver stabbed into the chest of a scorned lover. And to tie in the thought, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a beautiful hammer or screw-driver, but I know I have seen countless guns that are wonderful pieces of art and remarkable weapons when used as intended.

note: the above paragraph has been edited after being told of errors I made when originally posting.

I'm a "middle of the road Conservative", which to me means, I work to have a home and family, abide by the law and have done NOTHING to lose my RIGHT to own firearms. But on the other hand, there is the Leftist (not all of them) but the fifth generation trashy ones, bankrupting our country nearly as fast as our Government is - who has never earned a dollar because stealing it is easier or having the government give it to them, because they think it is due them. They choose to get their guns off the street and kill, rob, rape, and mangle not only themselves, but us. But the only ones accountable are us because we obey the laws.

So we end up arresting them, they call it profiling and use statistics to prove our point that these scum belongs behind bars or better yet, 6ft under. The shame of it is that we also have an "innocent until proven guilty" statue in our country, so sadly we end up arresting and sending this trash to prison so we can pay that bill the rest of theirs lives. Isn't there a point when cold blooded killers, people with souls replaced with pure evil should be put down, lethal injection and incinerated for 4 hours, and flushing their ashes down the toilets of the family's who's "lives they have changed forever". Put that on a ballot and I'll vote on it the minute the polls open.

So, as stated, guns are a tool, they have no conscience, hold no grudges, they are no worse than that screwdriver or hammer. The problem is people, "more importantly" the wrong people who get them, take them away from the equation and there is no gun debate.

So, I'll wait my 8 or 10 months while the government decides that they can't prevent me from getting a gun license because I have no issues that prevent it, but some monster with dead shark eyes, no soul and $100 can get a handgun on nearly any corner in many of the cities in the country. And we call this a legal system - and as mentioned prior (I never minded quoting myself) New Jersey is deciding if they'll allow me my RIGHT to possess firearms. As Michael Bush said, if they can decide whether you can have something or not, it is not a Right but a privilege.
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2013, 10:10:03 AM »

Not bad Beemaster. I only disagree on one point...


   A gun, no matter how big or small is Sarin Gas, something designed for one reason, to kill people - and there are many other weapons that are offensive only, but to take a Country as big as Australia with 22 million people (which is very close in size to the US) where here we have 310 million people, alone changes the rules dramatically.

   As I stated in my above post...   I have MANY guns that were designed, and BUILT without ANY intent to kill, people or animals with them..   BEING the person who built them, I can unequivocally say that their purpose, their design, their function, and even the ammunition they fire is NOT suited to killing in any way. Lets talk about that ammunition...   typically, its spire point boat tail target ammunition. It does not expand, or fragment if it hits a soft target like a person... it would most likely zip through them, leaving only a small hole in and out...   
   I also own .22 rifles. Rimfire rifles... are you saying those are designed to kill people? 

   I agree, that guns were designed with a purpose. I agree that guns make Killing easier. But I cannot agree that "GUNS KILL"

   "GUNS KILL" Is a statement made in ignorance.

   Ignorance;   the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

   I HONESTLY BELIEVE that the folks who stand against guns are IGNORANT of the facts. They cannot possibly see the whole picture with all the relevant information.
   Having once Lived in Maine.. I had ample opportunity to teach, and to train people from all over New England. Including MANY from Mass who Believed, just as Lone does, that there is no place in our society for guns.  Thankfully, Once they were more well informed, they DID understand.. Many of them still did not like guns, approve of them, but understanding has a way of making acceptance easier.

   
   Why shouldnt I own a gun I use for pleasure?  You Knit.. Arent your knitting needles dangerous? I know many people who own fast cars.. WHY on earth do you need a 900 HP 55 Chevy Bel Air? It is not practical, it has too much power, and it is likely to get you, or someone else killed!!!   
   SOme people like to carve, Some folks like to bake. Some Sew, Some have a woodworking shop, and some keep Honeybees. Those are things they enjoy doing, they are hobbies.   MUCH like me owning guns that are NOT designed to kill people.  Its all part of the pursuit of happiness AND the 2 amendment..  Its the USA..  or did that change when I wasnt looking?


   You CANNOT! SHALL NOT! WILL NOT!   EVER...     EVER....   EVER    Disarm me.. If you do?  It will be because this country IS NO MORE.. The reason it was founded is GONE, and that I will die fighting for, so I'll never have to be a sheep, walking around with my head hung down in shame.. bleating sadly while waiting to be sheered by Criminals, or by my own government.
   If Guns are banned, police officers will be disarmed as well right?
   I know a LOT of really good cops. I also see headlines every other day from somewhere in this country where a police officer abuses his power. 
   Power corrupts. It is a proven fact. There are those officers out there that will one day give in to that power/corruption. So why take the chance? Disarm them as well. If we have no guns then they have no need of them either.

   WE.. are the people who face the criminal element. Suddenly, Surprisingly, and unexpectedly. The PEOPLE, the CITIZENS of this country.    NOT police officers.  THEY have time to be issued their guns and ammunition when they get the call that we need them.  WE THE PEOPLE have no such luxury. We do not have the ability to wait 30 minutes to an hour for the police to arrive at our house during an emergency.. Yes, it DOES take that long here where I live..   In some cases its worse..   
   "I'm sorry, but we have no officers available to dispatch at this time."
   So.... what would you have me do if I cannot own a firearm?

   There is NO PLACE I cannot get to you. There is NO PLACE safe where you can HIDE from me if I wanted to get you.  THE ONLY thing that would deter me from coming after you is knowing you have a gun to protect yourself.
   I can smash a concrete wall in with my excavator. Yes I own one,, that going to be illegal next?  OK, SO I use a truck to smash the wall in..
  I can cut steel with my torches.   MOST houses today are made with press board and sheetrock...
   I can get into ANY house constructed of those materials using only my bare hands. NEVER opening a door or window. I can proceed to kick my way through your sheet rock walls from one end of your house to the other...  from entry to the last wall in less than seven minutes in most cases. 
   Lone.. do you have anyone you love? Are you married? Do you have a little girl?   What would you do to keep them from harm? Or do you feel no responsibility "TO" keep them from harm?
               
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2013, 12:09:52 PM »


A gun, no matter how big or small is Sarin Gas, something designed for one reason, to kill people ...

Mine must all be defective.
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2013, 03:44:28 PM »

>A gun, no matter how big or small is Sarin Gas, something designed for one reason, to kill people

The design criteria for a handgun is to stop a threat.  Not only was killing not the design criteria, but the statistics would bear that out.  If you get shot with a handgun you have a 2 out of 3 chance of survival.  If you get shot with a shotgun or a rifle you  have less than 1 in 20 chance of survival.  The shotgun was designed to kill birds and deer.  The high powered rifles used by most people for deer hunting were designed to kill people in war and then adapted to killing deer and elk.  The design of the "assault rifle" was, again, to wound rather than kill for the specific purpose of tying up more of the enemy taking care of their wounded rather than fighting the war.
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Re:
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2013, 04:20:13 PM »

The line where I mentioned Sarin, is a serious typo. I am no way meant to say a gun is anything like Sarin gas, but was met it is the exact opposite of Sarin. Sarin is made to kill, a gun has many uses only one of which is to kill something or someone.

Of all places for a typo to occur. I do try to explain my best my interpretations of what's expected of me as a potential gun owner, anyone following my story knows that New Jersey hasn't given me that right yet. Again ugh.
 
I standby the thinking that anyone with the legal possession of a weapon is responsible to protect the life of their self or others from harm from anyone committing an act that could lead to The maiming or death of innocent people.

The person pulling the gun and bringing on such damage has asked to be killed not to be wounded, not to be told to drop their weapons, but to be killed - and I think criminals should understand that they have signed their own death warrant.

There has been to many incidences where people firing weapons in convenience stores and gas stations and other places,  were shot by staff or management and they ran from the building only to return and kill the people who shot them.

An assailant shot in the arm and running from a building does not guarantee that they will not return, it is your job to see that they will not come back and finish the job they started, especially if there is no way to protect yourself from that return attack.

At one time I had said people should be able to collect all the guns they wish just limit the ammunition. Well, our government is doing that as we speak by buying up every single cartridge that they can. Making it nearly impossible for citizens to find affordable ammunition anywhere because the government has manufacturers making ammo 24 seven for whatever purpose they choose in Homeland security.

For people who are capable of paying four times as much as they did prior to this administration, places like GunBroker has ammunition in many of the more common cartridges. And I think eventually things will calm down but like most things prices won't recede much, only availability will increase. As hobbyists shooting guns at paper targets can get very expensive very quickly. For those protecting their home a few boxes of shells may be enough to do the job.

Again I apologize for the error concerning guns and Sarin gas, dictating to my iPhone often makes it harder to catch accidental cut and pasting mistakes and sometimes sentences slip by although they surely  were not written as such.
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2013, 11:08:04 PM »


  I wondered why that statement didnt seem to fit with anything else you said.. but its OK.. it gave me the opportunity to write another small book about something I know, enjoy, and believe in Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2013, 11:16:27 PM »

I thought that too that someone had to pick up on it being a typo.

I introduced a coworker to gunbroker.com today, who was complaining he cant find .45acp fmj cartridges anywhere, - 3 hours later he has 500 rounds coming, I believe 230grain ball (what he was actually looking for) for $180 plus $15 shipping to his door.

He promised me when the time comes I'll get to shoot a few magazines of the Kimber 1911 he bought them for Smiley  Life is good.

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