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Author Topic: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?  (Read 19443 times)
Ruben
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2006, 10:14:08 PM »

Dadant small celll foundation says basically what is below, so if I order this foundation for my hive bodies and supers I'll be ok cause if so thats what I'm going to do!


Suggested for use by experienced beekeepers only. Varroa Mite have a hard time reproducing on worker brood raised in small cell comb. Those beekeepers who on their own have tried this technique report good results, with varroa screens and drone foundation. Switching a colony of honey bees to small cell comb can be hard if not done at the correct time of the year. Honey bees first start major brood rearing in the Spring or right after swarming the beekeeper should introduce 10 frames of small cell foundation per brood chamber. So, if you are an experienced beekeeper who likes to experiment and want to move ahead of the chemical control crowd with your honey bee management, this may be for you.
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 03:15:17 AM »

Quote from: Apis629
Does anyone sell Small-Cell plastic foundation?



I haven't seen or heard about any SC plastic foundation, I did email pierco and ask them if they were going to make SC foundation, and they said , AS OF RIGHT NOW, IT IS NOT IN OUR PLANS, WE ARE CURRENTLY PUSHING THE SALE OF DRONE FOUNDATION FOR V-MITE CONTROL.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2006, 06:32:37 AM »

>Does anyone sell Small-Cell plastic foundation?

Dadant did.  I tried it.  Unregressed bees really messed it up.  Regressed bees treated it like any plastic.  Meaning usuallyt hey built on it.  Sometimes they messed it up.

>Michael when you say no foundation, I am assuming that you mean putting the frame in with nothing on them? If so what keeps them from binding all of the frames together?

You always have to have some kind of guide.  That can be starter strips,  a wooden "starter strip" a bevel on the top bar, some left over imprint of the last comb in that frame, or just an empty frame between two drawn combs.  Otherwise they will make a mess.  Check out my website for some pictures of combs on starter strips and comb guides.

> Also if you do it that way can you harvest honey w/comb?

I put comb guides on many and have used starter strips on many.   I also put empty frames between drawn combs often.  If they are not brand new wax (which is soft like putty) and they are attached a little bit on all four sides I extract them.  Otherwise I cut them for cut comb honey.  I can, and do, do both comb honey and extracted.  If I didn't want comb honey, I'd just leave them in the hive longer until they are attached on all four sides or crush and strain.

>Dadant small celll foundation says basically what is below, so if I order this foundation for my hive bodies and supers I'll be ok cause if so thats what I'm going to do!

Some of this, too, depends on your intended practices.  Do you intend to use an excluder (I wouldn't).  Do you intend to use an extractor?  If you only have a couple of hives I wouldn't.  If you're not using an extractor and not using a queen excluder and if you have different sized frames in the supers than the brood nest (I have all mediums) then I'd buy 7/11 thin surplus for the supers.  The queen won't like to lay in the 7/11, it won't have wires so you can make cut comb or crush and strain, and you won't have to spend extra for small cell foundation for the supers.  If you want to extract, I've also used the 7/11 (yes, unwired) and extracted often.

On the other hand if I ran all the same sized frames (I run all mediums) then I'd use all small cell so everything is interchangable.  But if your frames already aren't then it won't be much of a gain.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2006, 07:29:04 PM »

MB, I have not seen plastic SC on dadant web page, is it not sold anymore? I have not gone to small cell because I have a hard time believing any hive of bee's will survive on SC but im going to try it for myself with two hives this year, I still believe there are resistance bee's that will make the difference, I have a few hive now and getting more this spring from splits and removal plus getting 4 nuc's and raising my own queens for my slpits, going to be a good year I hope.  Im going to try SC with 2 hives this year, all my bee's are on pierco foundation so maybe it want to hard for them to get regressed, I'm going to find out for myself to see what it does, I cant say it doesn't work because I have never tried it, there are a few people that believe in it like MB and there are some that controll the mites and dont believe in SC like Finsky, but I'll try it with 2 italian hives (HIVE'S THAT AREN'T SUPPOSE TO BE RESISTANT) and see how they do. these are Kona italians hives Im going to try this on, I will do all I can to keep these hives going until they are regressed, then I will stop all treatment of any kind, I'll do mite drop counts and fill out a study for myself. when its all said and done I'll post it here. I have read from 2 places that SC and standard size bee's at times of the year are the same size, but when they are born they are not and that is easy to understand because of cell size and MB says the smaller bee with hatch out earlier and a earlier hatching would throw off a mite's brood cycle. that is the reason im going to try 2 hives, just to see for myself.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2006, 09:18:36 PM »

>MB, I have not seen plastic SC on dadant web page, is it not sold anymore?

I don't think they are stocking it anymore.  It's from a Korean company who just wanted too much and Dadant must not have sold enough of it.  I have some around here somewhere.

> I have not gone to small cell because I have a hard time believing any hive of bee's will survive on SC but im going to try it for myself with two hives this year

Why wouldn't they?  Let them build their own comb and it WILL be small cell.  Time them capping and emerging and you'll get a 19 day cycle instead of a 21 day cycle.  That's a lot less Varroa reproducing.

> I still believe there are resistance bee's that will make the difference, I have a few hive now and getting more this spring from splits and removal plus getting 4 nuc's and raising my own queens for my slpits, going to be a good year I hope. Im going to try SC with 2 hives this year, all my bee's are on pierco foundation so maybe it want to hard for them to get regressed

You've already got the first regression on Pierco.

> I'm going to find out for myself to see what it does, I cant say it doesn't work because I have never tried it, there are a few people that believe in it like MB and there are some that controll the mites and dont believe in SC like Finsky

Yes, but unlike Finsky, I've actually TRIED small cell.  Smiley

> but I'll try it with 2 italian hives (HIVE'S THAT AREN'T SUPPOSE TO BE RESISTANT) and see how they do. these are Kona italians hives Im going to try this on, I will do all I can to keep these hives going until they are regressed, then I will stop all treatment of any kind, I'll do mite drop counts and fill out a study for myself.

Dee, who pioneered this, would say that survivor bees are equally important.  But I saw a huge difference with any kind of bees.  Still I've gone to all feral survivors.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2006, 11:38:47 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
Yes, but unlike Finsky, I've actually TRIED small cell.  Smiley .


BUT, the small cells are not mainpoint in beekeeping.

Mainpoint in small cell  is VARROA, not small cell itself!  What ALTERNATIVES you have handle varroa, - many, ten or more?  I have  cured varroa 20 years and I have no troubles with it. A little bit work. Chalk brood is much more worse. My hives are big 6-7 boxes. I gather here on 60 north degree 150 lbs average yields. Last summer many of hives  gathered almost 400 lbs. How many there in south  show these figures.

My bees are at same level as Anchorage in Alaska. I destroyed my first varroa hive in the year 1982. Michael does not remember any more which is purpose of beekeeping.
.

I bought varroa resistant bee queens , I believed that. But when I trickled those 5 hives with oxalic acid hives had as much mites like italians.  I do not bother calculate mites. I just pour acids on mites neck.  I keep them down. It goes well. I need not obey all orders what people invite on the globe.  Tongue

And bees thank me with huge yields !

I am master in science in biology from Helsinki University. I have studied genetics with best grades. I understand biolocical basics and I love to use facts and give value to research.

.
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db
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2006, 03:17:56 AM »

Hello all,
@Finsky: you are wrong and you know this, but please let other beginners like me keep bee without chemicals, it makes me sick to hear you! allways the same ideas since 20 years! 20 wasted years of beekeeping. Now we have extremley aggressive varroa mite here, selected to withstand acids and drugs really good selected ones ! and what is with our bees?  they are getting weaker and weaker und you want to tell me that this is the right way ? no way man !
@Michael: most of the beekeeper beginners don want chemical, acids etc in the hives, but most of the older beekeepers are less able to accept new ideas...
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2006, 05:38:42 AM »

Quote from: db
20 wasted years of beekeeping....


You are dam wrong. 43 years wasted beekeeping behind. But even some have those years ahead!  What is young beekeepr?  I was 15 y when I started.



Quote from: db
Hello all,
@Finsky: you are wrong and you know this, but please let other beginners like me keep bee without chemicals, it makes me sick to hear you! allways the same ideas since 20 years! ...


What do you know about 20 year's ideas.  I have  changed the cure many times. You can keep you bees just as you like, but don't deliver uncertain cures for them who do not understand.  As you see, no university, no administration or officials  recommend small cells.

And when you speak about chemicals, you is better know what it means in your daily life. I have met a lot of persons in this forum who say that sugar is poison or it is not good for bees.

LOOK here:
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sunr.htm

"Much has been written about regression. That's the process of getting bees, which have been living on large cell size comb, established on small cell size comb. My small cell bees were healthier, overwintered better, built up faster in the spring and could tolerate mites, but regressing bees is an onerous process. When following the Lusby method, most of ones hives will succumb to the varroa mite before they become established on small cell comb. I lost over 90% of my hives this way and the few survivors were very weak."

I suppose that this guy is professional.
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Finsky
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2006, 05:47:22 AM »

New Siberian foundation standard 5,60 mm

You all know that Russian Siberia was the first areas where varroa spread. Just now Russians have accepted
new foundation stardard and it is 5,60 mm.  Usual size is 5,3 mm,  but this is bigger.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2006, 06:58:45 AM »

>BUT, the small cells are not mainpoint in beekeeping.

No.  Helping the bees do what they do is.  And small cells are what they do.

>Mainpoint in small cell is VARROA, not small cell itself! What ALTERNATIVES you have handle varroa, - many, ten or more?

All of which involve adding chemicals to the hive.  They don't get in the honey do they?  Or the wax?  Or shorten the lives of the queens?  Or affect the fertility ofthe drones?

> Last summer many of hives gathered almost 400 lbs. How many there in south show these figures.

I don't.  When managing for honey I've goteen 200 lbs per hive in a good year.

>My bees are at same level as Anchorage in Alaska. I destroyed my first varroa hive in the year 1982. Michael does not remember any more which is purpose of beekeeping.

And the purpose of beekeeping is?  My bees are mostly on natural combs that they build themselves that run from 4.4mm to 5.0mm with most around 4.8mm  They are healthy without my interference.  Should I prefer weak bees with lots of varroa that require chemicals to prop them up and keep them alive?
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2006, 07:01:03 AM »

The main point of small cell is to let the bees build natural sized cells which makes them much healther all the way around.  Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see how much faster the bees can build up and how much slower the Varroa build up.  This is a win/win.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finsky
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2006, 08:13:54 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush


bees build natural sized cells

They have allways. Feral bees die in varroa, in New Zeland in 3 years.

Quote
 much healther all the way around.  


Who lives he sees!

You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.


Quote
Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see


You have africanized bees Michael or you have noticed egg stage.

Nature heals - I know that....No hospitals, no medicin, no doctors, no ambulances, only nature
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2006, 08:47:37 AM »

Bee diaseases

Better learn basics.

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Diseases_of_Honey_Bees_PM.pdf
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2006, 10:56:03 AM »

Quote from: Finsky

Quote
 much healther all the way around.  


Who lives he sees!

You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.



I can't pick up a hand full of dirt, drop it, and tell you the wind is blowing from the southwest because I am not a scientist. I would have to look up the national weather service data and post that up here before you would believe the wind was blowing from the southwest.
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2006, 11:14:23 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
before you would believe the wind was blowing from the southwest.


 Everyone is  blessed in his truth.  - I hope.

We like this proverb: "Blessed are woodheads because they do not drown." rolleyes
Our woodhead means blockhead in Engslish. I do not know what material your  block is.  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2006, 11:27:36 AM »

Quote from: Finsky
"Blessed are woodheads because they do not drown."


They can become waterlogged and sink.
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2006, 11:50:04 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
[

They can become waterlogged and sink.


Never heard that  Tongue
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Ruben
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2006, 06:49:39 PM »

So as a newbie I am curious what if any is the advantage to beekeepers using the larger cells than what a wild bee would make? Is it to produce more honey? And when did the practice of going to larger cells start? From a neutral stand point at this time what M.B is saying makes sense to me about using what the bees would make if people did not interfere. I would just like to know why they made them larger to begin with?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2006, 08:08:30 PM »

>>bees build natural sized cells
>They have allways.

No.  They have not.  Baudoux did many years of research on changing the size of bees by changing the size of the foundation.  Bees build the pattern you give them for the most part.

>Feral bees die in varroa, in New Zeland in 3 years.

I've never been to New Zeland but I hear the same reports here and yet I find more and more of them and others find more and more of them.

>You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.

I have hives that have not been treated in five years.  For anything.  That's convincing enough for me.  Dee's haven't been treated in 18 years.

>>Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see
>You have africanized bees Michael or you have noticed egg stage.

I watched commercial Carniolans in an observation hive on several occasions lay eggs in 4.95mm cells and timed them.  It's the same result with the ferals or the Italians.  It's also the same report measured by Huber in the late 1700s.

The egg is laid on day one and how many days have elapsed?  Zero.  So on the 20th day how many days have elapsed?  19.

“The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering.  The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed.  In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form.  It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state.”
FRANCIS HUBER 4 September 1791.

Did Huber have AHB?

>So as a newbie I am curious what if any is the advantage to beekeepers using the larger cells than what a wild bee would make?

It was the goal of Baudoux to make a bigger bee who could, theoretically haul larger loads of nectar and have alonger tongue to make use of red clover.

Dimensions of cells According to Baudoux
Cell Width      Cell Volume
5.555 mm      301 mm3
5.375      277
5.210      256
5.060      237
4.925      222
4.805      206
4.700      192
From ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition pg 126


http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/celldata.htm

> Is it to produce more honey?

That was Baudoux's theory.

> And when did the practice of going to larger cells start?

Baudaoux started in the late 1800's and continued his research up into the 20's at least.  I'm not sure how long.  The original foundation mills in this country were five cells to an inch (4.98 to 5.0mm).  AI Root back in the late 1800s went to 5.13mm (4.85 cells to the inch).  It continued to go up until now when Finsky says the Siberians have gone to 5.6mm.

> From a neutral stand point at this time what M.B is saying makes sense to me about using what the bees would make if people did not interfere. I would just like to know why they made them larger to begin with?

Because they thought bigger bees were better bees.

Here's some natural comb from unregressed commercial carniolans:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/47mmCombMeasurement.jpg

Here's some from a hive in Pennsylvania:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/44mmComb.jpg

Here's standard foundation:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant54mmMeasured.JPG

I have measured a lot of natural drawn combs.  I have seen worker brood in the range of 4.6mm to 5.1mm with most in the 4.7 to 4.8 ranges.  I have not seen any large areas of 5.4mm cells.  These were all on Carniolan, Italian and Buckfast bees.
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Michael Bush
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Ruben
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2006, 09:28:28 PM »

That's enough info for me, I have 9 5/8 hive bodies and 6 5/8 supers and if I understood you correctly I can use the small cell in these boxes and that is what I am going to do, If all goes well next year I will add a few more hives and as I get more comfortable I would like then to try starter strips with no foundation. When I started this adventure I thought you might get a gallon of honey per year from one hive, and it blew me away when I found out people commonly get over 100lbs. My uneducated theory of MB and Finshy's posts is that we should try to come up with a Varroa resistant queen and then put her on small cell foundation Smiley
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