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Author Topic: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?  (Read 19173 times)
Finsky
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« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2006, 02:01:23 AM »

I have collected in my mind Mickhael's ideas about beekeeping. It is not small cell but natural way to nurse bees. When I look details, it means that I skills should go backwars AT LEAST 50 years. In those days ordinary beekeepers handled hives like Mickhael says. Even 20 years ago I met those beekeepers but varroa killed their hives and hives are now rotten.

I was lucky that I met a guy who had worked in Canada and he was able to translate  American beekeeping skills for Finland. He had ordered boath American beekeeping magazines to his home. He really did worked many pioneering methods for Finland.

I have lived the period where most of beekeepers nursed bees like Michael. They got about 30-40 lbs honey per hive. Now I get four times more.  

The question is not varroa. Question is on the whole back to nature. No thanks.  IT MEANS REGRESSION OF BEEKEEPER.

It would be honest to tell new hobby beekeepers that wax strips and small cells and swarming crossbreeded bee stocks  is ART OF REGRESSED BEEKEEPING.  
But I am tired to give comments all the to same stupid things.  You should give new name to this forum: REGRESSION FORUM.
.
.
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Joseph Clemens
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« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2006, 04:17:16 AM »

I thought this topic was about small-cell foundation?

Oh well, following the current tangent:

    -- I don't care if my bees are AHB or any other mutt bee (I don't believe there are any "pure" strains/races in this country). I care if they aren't bothered by the myriad pests and diseases that are most everywhere these days. I care if they are productive -- can bring in a suitable surplus. I care if their defense level permits working them and keeping them in relatively close proximity to neighbors and livestock. If they can hang in there with my lack of treatments, I can accept a slightly lower productivity, but if they present themselves to be overly defensive, they've gotta go, AHB or not.

    -- I've kept bees since 1964 and I've never treated with any "modern" chemicals, or other means, until recently when I've begun using some small-cell foundation and I've never lost a colony in all that time.

Bottom line: Why is there so much concern over the ancestral origins of "Bad bees". Overly-defensive bees gotta go, it shouldn't matter where they initially originated. If one of my colonies starts acting up, I'm not going to worry about their ancestry.
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Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Finsky
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« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2006, 06:06:43 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Clemens
   -- I've kept bees since 1964 and I've never treated with any "modern" chemicals, or other means, until recently .


You have been lucky. We have one beekeeper on Polar Circle and he has no diseases there behind God's back.

Varroa came to our area strong in the year 1987. My mother-in-law visited in Germany and she brought Perizin and I gived it to my bees. We had no legal cure against varroa at that time.

My best friend had 60 hives before winter. He said that he had sawn mites in hives. I said:" I give you Perizin and it cost nothing. Come and take.  He said:" I don't care this year, thanks. Lets see next year.  He lost 30 hives.

Same time one professional did not get importing licence to peritzin and he lost 400 hives.

At winter 3 years ago I lost 60% of my hives. One big reason was that I had got Apistan resistant mite population. It was blessing to me. By force I took into use such tricks into use, that now my yields are 80% bigger than before catastrophe.  - Thanks to God that I knew nothing about regression.

I had known 40 years the anvantage of electrict heating and now I took it into use.  Tongue  

We have stories. But most of people to whom I give advices, does not use them. That is their business.
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derbeemeister
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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2006, 08:34:43 AM »

MICHAEL;
But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin.

me:
Man, you bought that hook, line and sinker. No reputable entomologist would agree with that statement. Dozens of people have made their entire careers out of measuring the sizes of bees, and their respective cells. Randall Hepburn, Steve Sheppard, Marla Spivak. The notion that europena bees were smaller before foundation is BS

join:
Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee BiologyBEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU

ME:
this is obviously a very uninformed discussion. Goodbye.
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2006, 08:51:23 AM »

This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.

Usually GOD is injected when there is a need to reinforce some flaky ideas. Since no one CAN ACTUALLY SEE " GOD " there is always the allure of the mysterious to explain the un-explained.(  A shiver and goose bumps are called for here).  cheesy

Hey, I vote Republican anyway!!!
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Finsky
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2006, 09:06:34 AM »

Quote from: Jack Parr
This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.


I really think that this only killing time. Small cell here, small cell there, ewrywhere small cells, hiia hii hou!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2006, 09:45:30 AM »

>But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin.

>Man, you bought that hook, line and sinker.

No.  I did not.  I didn't believe it at all until I took bees and put them on natural cell and took those bees and put them on natural cell.  I've never bought anything "hook line and sinker" in my life.

> No reputable entomologist would agree with that statement. Dozens of people have made their entire careers out of measuring the sizes of bees, and their respective cells. Randall Hepburn, Steve Sheppard, Marla Spivak.

I HAVE asked them and you are correct that they would not agree.  But ask them what size a EHB will build if you let them build natural comb and they will say 5.1mm to 5.2mm.  Ask them what they the bees raised on 5.1mm to 5.2mm will build if you let them and they give you a blank look.  I know.  I've asked several of the reputable entomologists.  The experiment is, at best, only half over on the first try.

And still, in spite of the fact that they will say that EHB build 5.2mm they use 5.4mm foundation.

>The notion that europena bees were smaller before foundation is BS

Have you tried it? It's a simple experiment.  I certainly do NOT expect you to believe because I said so.  I expect you to be a scientist and find out for yourself.

>this is obviously a very uninformed discussion. Goodbye.

A very inexperienced discussion, apparently. People with no experience denying the observations of one group of people based on different observations under different circumstances (only one regression) by another group of people but unwilling to try to find out the truth themselves.

>This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.

I didn't. Finsky did and I obliged.  But that is irrelevant to the discussion which is what will EHB build and what is the result of them being on that size cell.  Was there any time that wasn't the point of the discussion?

>Usually GOD is injected when there is a need to reinforce some flaky ideas.

Or when someone wants to brand the idea as flaky when God was not part of the discussion.

>I really think that this only killing time. Small cell here, small cell there, ewrywhere small cells, hiia hii hou!

I would get used to it.  The number of small cell beekeepers is growing.  Smiley
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2006, 09:57:20 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
> The number of small cell beekeepers is growing.  Smiley


And what does it means? What then when all use small cells? What then?

50 years ago in my country we had very few Langstrot hives. Now allmost all are Langstroths. Perhaps after 100 years our all hives are TOPBAR:
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2006, 10:55:48 AM »

>And what does it means? What then when all use small cells? What then?

Healthy bees?

>50 years ago in my country we had very few Langstrot hives. Now allmost all are Langstroths. Perhaps after 100 years our all hives are TOPBAR:

Perhaps.  Perhaps not. Why is that a threat to you?  Top bar hives are easy to build and easy to work.  I have lots of Langstroth hives and no intentions of getting rid of them.  What does that have to do with natural cell size?  Top bar hives are just one way to get natural cell size out of many options.  They are certainly not a requirement.

Most small cell people are using Langstroth hives an 4.9mm foundation.  Typical beekeeping practices.  Typical or higher yields.  How is that a step back?  Yes, I like natural cells.  Mostly because I frankly didn't believe that small cell was natural when it was presented and had to find out myself what the bees would build on their own.  Once a foundationless frame is drawn, I do whatever is expedient for me.  I extract them.  I make cut comb when I have a market for that.  What's so different?  Where is the giant step backwards?
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Michael Bush
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jfischer
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« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2006, 05:57:19 PM »

I wish that this had not "gotten out", but since it has, I can confirm
that Derbeemeister is correct.  

Housel's bees, progeny of apparently the same (perhaps marked) queens
he got from a certain "small cell" operation in AZ, were found to be very
"hot", which prompted him to call the State Apiarist, which led to a positive
DNA match with AHB DNA.

It could be that the hives at issue were usurped, or it
could be that they simply superceded, and we should
wait for some sort of official account before making any snap
judgements, but I'm guessing that all other possibilities have
been eliminated, and the queens were marked. Anything less would
prompt everyone to shrug, and charge it off to yet another case
of simple usurpation of an EHB hive by AHB.

> I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here. What are "those
> bees"? Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African
> and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

It was DNA tests done by the Florida State Apiarist's office, and
I would rather not name any names, but it is a name that is
very familiar to you, Mike.

Note that I have no firm confirmation that the queens heading up each
hive were verified as being marked, but as usurpation would have been
the first guess when an existing apiary becomes hot, simple logic dictates
that the conclusion that the queens producing bees with significant AHB
DNA came in queen cages, rather than took over the hives via usurpation.

> Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to
> florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida
> authorities. they are killing them

While I have nothing but hearsay about the California case, this is
what I have also heard from other sources.

> I also don’t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell
> size. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I see no connection.

There isn't any inherent connection, as you well know Mike,  so you
can stop your blustering.  Smiley  The connection is that bees represented
as "small cell bees" and sold in interstate commerce in this one case
turned out to be AHB, rather than regressed EHB.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2006, 09:32:40 PM »

>It could be that the hives at issue were usurped, or it
could be that they simply superceded, and we should
wait for some sort of official account before making any snap
judgements, but I'm guessing that all other possibilities have
been eliminated, and the queens were marked. Anything less would
prompt everyone to shrug, and charge it off to yet another case
of simple usurpation of an EHB hive by AHB.

I'm afraid I am unaware of any of this.  As you say, if they were marked, that may be one thing.  If not, we know there are very pure African genetics in Florida already.

>There isn't any inherent connection, as you well know Mike, so you
can stop your blustering.

There are several posts in this thread and recently in a couple of others that seem to be insinuating a connection between the concept of small cell beekeeping and Africanized bees.  I'm merely trying to get some clarity and perhaps provide some back rather than the insinuations.
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Michael Bush
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2006, 09:45:16 PM »

Acutally, from my experience, if you're looking for someone shipping large numbers of AHB queens all over, I think I'd start looking in Texas.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
jfischer
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« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2006, 10:21:23 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
Acutally, from my experience, if you're looking for someone shipping large numbers of AHB queens all over, I think I'd start looking in Texas.


Oh, don't say THAT!   rolleyes
The approved phrase is "just don't EVER let those bees superceede"
saying anything else will result in legal threats against the website owner.
Just ask Aaron.
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Finsky
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« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2006, 03:05:29 AM »

Now I understand how small cell shortens brood cycle from 21 day to 19.  Tongue
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Finsky
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« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2006, 03:47:10 AM »

Quote from: jfischer
The connection is that bees represented
as "small cell bees" and sold in interstate commerce in this one case
turned out to be AHB, rather than regressed EHB.



Very new point to beginners.
small cell beekeeping
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sxpe.htm

Bwrangler writes:
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sxpe.htm

My Experience

Mite Tolerant Bees In Arizona
In 1996, the Bee Culture magazine published a couple of articles about some Arizona beekeepers who ran bees without using pesticides. ....

 The Lusby's were using a smaller cell sized foundation and also breeding from the local bee. As a small time queen producer, I suspected the real reason for their success was an influx of African genetics. I phoned them hoping to get some bee stock to evaluate
*******************

In other countries to develope mite resistant bees is more than difficult.

Solution has been in USA 10 years  and they still USA suffers exanding losses by varroa. - Why it does not work on professional level?

In New Zeland they want no American bee blood from antivarroa hives. They are afraid that they get African genepool into their feral bees.

It seems that many beekeepers know a lot but they are afraid to write it.
.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2006, 07:01:16 AM »

>The approved phrase is "just don't EVER let those bees superceede"
saying anything else will result in legal threats against the website owner.

Then let me elaborate.  If states are going to get excited about people shipping AHB, I think they should ban all imports from any state with AHB or test the offsring of all of them.  But we beekeepers really should do this ourselves by not buying queens from ANY state with AHB and rasing our own.  We may have to eventually have to deal with AHB, but I'd love to put it off for as long as possible.

About the only thing I hate in beekeeping more than wax moths is really mean bees.
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Michael Bush
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2006, 07:08:08 AM »

You can find more stuff here;

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeod3nx/id5.html
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jfischer
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« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2006, 10:07:36 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>If states are going to get excited about people
 shipping AHB, I think they should ban all imports from any state with AHB
or test the offspring of all of them.


This exists now, at the county level of granulation rather than state.  It
would be unfair to put someone "out of business" simply because there
was an AHB find somewhere in the state.  Further, queen breeders
are inspected for a number of diseases and pests just before they start
shipping queens and/or packages every year regardless of where they
are, so I think that the situation is "pretty much under control" without
adding the draconian restrictions you propose.

And this is not a case of anyone "getting excited".  In fact, there is much
angst and dismay, as the apiaries from which the queens issued have
been visited by many, and have not been witnessed to have "hot hives".

The point here is that "the system" works, when funded adequately
and staffed by people of good character.  That's good, because this
sort of thing is going to happen again.  To quote Bogart: "Maybe not
today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon — and for the rest of your life.
"
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derbeemeister
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« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2006, 11:47:20 AM »

MICHAEL:

I'm afraid I am unaware of any of this.

ME:
You could have said that last week, but now you can't.

Der bee meister
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Herve Abeille
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« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2006, 12:36:21 PM »

Quote from: Finsky
Now I understand how small cell shortens brood cycle from 21 day to 19.  Tongue


arizona small cellers also state that the bees exhibit the ability to rear worker bees and queen bees using the eggs of laying workers in honey bee colonies (thelytoky) as well as swarms moving in and "requeening" colonies (nest usurpation). Both these are african bee traits. oh, and also, they test positive for african on morphometric tests, especially wing length & cell size. dave de Jong has been saying for years the answer to most beekeeping problems is to mix in african stock. they keep the hives filled with bees, have much less trouble with predators. now it is entirely possible the arizona small cellers have selected non-agressive african bees. no one doubts that possiblility. what SEEMS impossible is that they could be SURROUNDED by african swarms, have swarms moving into their hives, have workers raising queens from their own eggs, that they are naturally smaller -- AND these aren't african bees? could say more, but who wants to get sued
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Herve Abeille
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