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Author Topic: TRULY A DEMOCRATS PARADISE!  (Read 2790 times)
iddee
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« on: August 24, 2013, 08:20:09 AM »

TRULY A DEMOCRATS PARADISE!
 
Now, Consider This:
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
Chicago pays the highest wages to  teachers than anywhere else in the U.S. averaging $110,000/year. 
Their pensions average 80-90% of their income. You can't  blame that on republicans because there aren't any.
Wow, are  Illinois and Chicago great or what?
Be sure to read till the  end. I've never heard it explained better.
Perhaps the U.S.  should pull out of Chicago ?
Body count: In the last six  months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago .
221 killed in Iraq  AND Chicago has one of the strictest gun laws in the entire US.
. Here's the Chicago chain of command:
. President: Barack  Hussein Obama
. Senator: Dick Durbin
. House  Representative: Jesse Jackson Jr.
. Governor: Pat Quinn 
. House leader: Mike Madigan
. Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan  (daughter of Mike)
. Mayor: Rohm Emanuel
. The  leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
. Thank you for the  combat zone in Chicago .

. Of course, they're all  blaming each other.
. Can't blame Republicans; there aren't  any!
. Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the  country. Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
. State  pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country. Can't blame  Republicans; there aren't any!
. Cook County ( Chicago ) sales  tax 10.25% highest in country. Can't blame Republicans; there  aren't any!
. This is the political culture that Obama comes  from in Illinois . And he is going to 'fix' Washington politics  for us???
. George Ryan is no longer Governor, he is in the  big house.
. Of course he was replaced by Rob Blagojevitch  who is...that's right, also in the big house.
. And  Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. resigned a couple of weeks ago.  That is because he is fighting being sent to...that's right, the  big house.
. The Land of Lincoln , where our governors make  our license plates.

But you know what? As long as they  keep providing entitlements to the population of Chicago ,  nothing is going to change, except the state will go broke  before the country does.

"Any man who thinks he can be happy  and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him;  better take a closer look at the American Indian."
 
 
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Vance G
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 12:43:28 PM »

How does one refute that--but bumble bee will certainly give it a go.  We have a lawless administration that is aping Chicago.  God help us because the Republicans are too gutless to curb these dogs.
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deknow
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 07:31:04 AM »

Claim #1:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.

I'm virtually certain that this claim comes out of the "death spiral" Forbes article.  This distorted paraphrase includes everyone working for state and local government, and anyone that is recieving retirement benefits from having done so.

So now anyone with a pension is on "welfare"?

deknow
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gdoten
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »

Claim #1:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.

I'm virtually certain that this claim comes out of the "death spiral" Forbes article.  This distorted paraphrase includes everyone working for state and local government, and anyone that is recieving retirement benefits from having done so.

So now anyone with a pension is on "welfare"?

deknow

From the article you cite, the terms are well defined: “A taker is someone who draws money from the government, as an employee, pensioner or welfare recipient. A maker is someone gainfully employed in the private sector.”

The point is clear. The takers outnumber the makers so there's not enough makers to fund the takers. Heck, it doesn't even require "takers > makes" for this formula to fail badly, as it has in this D paradise.

And all these decades I though Mass. was the D (takers) paradise. Don't fret, I'm sure it's rated at least 2nd place.
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-glenn-
iddee
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »

And if the gov. was ran like the private sector, where only those needed were kept on the payroll, how many gov. employees would be let go?  Just guessing, but I would say over half. Those, I would consider on welfare now. Hard distinction to make, I agree, but that is still only one small "maybe" from the whole OP. I still say there is a major problem in Chicago.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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deknow
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »

Errr, I'm not the one that is making the claim that a retired firefighter or police officer with a pension is a welfare recipient....which is the claim that Idee is making:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
I'm just as disgusted by how the public sector is usually run as anyone....but retired heros (injured or not) who put their life on the line for others, and who are getting what they are contractually entitled
to are not welfare recipients, and not "takers".
Next up, those lazy leaches of society known as "disabled veterans" and "active duty soldiers" become the target of mindless right wing scapegoating.
Give me a break.

deknow
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gdoten
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2013, 03:26:13 PM »

Errr, I'm not the one that is making the claim that a retired firefighter or police officer with a pension is a welfare recipient....which is the claim that Idee is making:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
I'm just as disgusted by how the public sector is usually run as anyone....but retired heros (injured or not) who put their life on the line for others, and who are getting what they are contractually entitled
to are not welfare recipients, and not "takers".
Next up, those lazy leaches of society known as "disabled veterans" and "active duty soldiers" become the target of mindless right wing scapegoating.
Give me a break.

deknow


No one has said that there are no takers that don't deserve what they get, either here or in the article you site; in fact, the article directly states the opposite of what you claim. D's simply cannot ever consider spending less, even when faced with the fact that takers > makers only leads to cronyism and bankruptcy. Notwithstanding your straw man arguments, of course this is somehow all the fault of the R's, and not the D's that created this situation!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 04:53:26 PM by gdoten » Logged

-glenn-
iddee
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

First, any pension that was not paid into, in my opinion, is welfare.

Second, any ex soldier who is not disabled in or by their service, who collects benefits are both takers and criminals, unless it is a retirement pension.  ""See First""

Vets who were disabled in or by the service collect because the service was liable.
Active soldiers do their day's work for a day's pay, which, I may add, is very low. Mine was below minimum wage at the time I was in.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 05:50:42 PM »

First, any pension that was not paid into, in my opinion, is welfare.

Second, any ex soldier who is not disabled in or by their service, who collects benefits are both takers and criminals, unless it is a retirement pension.  ""See First""

Vets who were disabled in or by the service collect because the service was liable.
Active soldiers do their day's work for a day's pay, which, I may add, is very low. Mine was below minimum wage at the time I was in.

Service members pay nothing into their pension.  They also get paid two to three times more than what the same person on the economy gets paid. Everyone seems to forget about bha.
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iddee
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 07:48:43 PM »

My base pay was 76.00 per month. My BHA was 96.00 per month.
I don't think that was quite 2 to 3 times civilian pay.

I know it isn't the same today, but I'm guessing it would still compare as about the same percentage.


""Service members pay nothing into their pension.""

And I agree they are takers when they retire. The unless was for the criminal aspect. The retirees are authorized. Any other able bodied vet does not legally get a monthly check.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 08:10:16 PM »

Times have changed. A Sargent, usually in their mid 20s takes home close to 60k a year, in some areas more. That is post tax income. A Sargent has almost no responsibility. When you factor in the untaxable income and insurance, that is near a gross of 90k per year.  This is a non combat billet, which is what 90 percent of the billets are.  The average household gross salary in the US is about 40 k.
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Modenacart
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 08:12:28 PM »

I work with a lot of retired senior chiefs and master Sargents and we work directly with the military. They refer to today's military as a huge welfare program.
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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 09:07:25 PM »

Looks more like base 29,000 and with benefits 54,000 to me.
And, unless it has changed, it is pre tax, unless in a combat zone.

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.html
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 09:46:27 PM »

Looks more like base 29,000 and with benefits 54,000 to me.
And, unless it has changed, it is pre tax, unless in a combat zone.

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.html


If you read the link it is post tax dollars (take hime pay) and it doesn't account for the really sweet 20 year retirement.  54k is on the low end and that is near 60k.
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Modenacart
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »

How many jobs are there for a 24 year old with no college education can you take home post taxes near that.  Hell, how many with college educations.
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iddee
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2013, 10:01:55 PM »

NO, the benefits are post tax. The base is pre tax. Also, 60 total is a long way from 60 base and 90+ total.

I do agree, tho, all volunteer makes a lot more than draftees.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »

NO, the benefits are post tax. The base is pre tax. Also, 60 total is a long way from 60 base and 90+ total.

I do agree, tho, all volunteer makes a lot more than draftees.
the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket, so yes, take home. Add the 5k to pay insurance, the 10k people pay in taxes, the 20k you would need to put in your 401k to get the same retirement at 20 years. Sounds a lot like 90k to me.
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iddee
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »

""the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket,""

How do you figure that? And, if they signed up in certain states, they also pay state income tax on the base, even if based overseas.

As for 401k, with interest rates at less than 1% and add in a few losses over the years, why not say 200,000 each year to get the same retirement? Not that much more ridiculous than 20,000.
That's also forgetting that a vast number of civilian companies offer retirement, many after 10 years, with increasing payments for more years served.

This is not exactly staying on topic, so I think we should cut it off here. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.



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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2013, 10:52:57 PM »

""the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket,""

How do you figure that? And, if they signed up in certain states, they also pay state income tax on the base, even if based overseas.

As for 401k, with interest rates at less than 1% and add in a few losses over the years, why not say 200,000 each year to get the same retirement? Not that much more ridiculous than 20,000.
That's also forgetting that a vast number of civilian companies offer retirement, many after 10 years, with increasing payments for more years served.

This is not exactly staying on topic, so I think we should cut it off here. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.
i recommend seeing an accountant for retirement numbers to get paid for another 40 to 50 years after working 20 years. It takes a huge investment during the 20 years.

Most companies are offering no pension or pensions funded by the employee.  Far differ t than the military. Both secretary Gates and Hagel have stated military compensation are way out if line.
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »

It’s so refreshing to see somebody who actually understands economics for a change. applause  Yep, you’re looking at about a million bucks of SOMEBODYS (ie tax payers) capital to generate the yearly pension for each retiree.  NOBODY gets pensions like that anymore in private industry unless they’re execs.  The unions used to get those kind of bennies out of the auto makers, but we know how that turned out......  The government employees are the NEW union for the 21st century. laugh  And who said the Republicans don't love Welfare  laugh  They're just very particular about WHO they give our money too  laugh  
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