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Author Topic: TRULY A DEMOCRATS PARADISE!  (Read 3154 times)
iddee
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« on: August 24, 2013, 08:20:09 AM »

TRULY A DEMOCRATS PARADISE!
 
Now, Consider This:
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
Chicago pays the highest wages to  teachers than anywhere else in the U.S. averaging $110,000/year. 
Their pensions average 80-90% of their income. You can't  blame that on republicans because there aren't any.
Wow, are  Illinois and Chicago great or what?
Be sure to read till the  end. I've never heard it explained better.
Perhaps the U.S.  should pull out of Chicago ?
Body count: In the last six  months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago .
221 killed in Iraq  AND Chicago has one of the strictest gun laws in the entire US.
. Here's the Chicago chain of command:
. President: Barack  Hussein Obama
. Senator: Dick Durbin
. House  Representative: Jesse Jackson Jr.
. Governor: Pat Quinn 
. House leader: Mike Madigan
. Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan  (daughter of Mike)
. Mayor: Rohm Emanuel
. The  leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
. Thank you for the  combat zone in Chicago .

. Of course, they're all  blaming each other.
. Can't blame Republicans; there aren't  any!
. Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the  country. Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
. State  pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country. Can't blame  Republicans; there aren't any!
. Cook County ( Chicago ) sales  tax 10.25% highest in country. Can't blame Republicans; there  aren't any!
. This is the political culture that Obama comes  from in Illinois . And he is going to 'fix' Washington politics  for us???
. George Ryan is no longer Governor, he is in the  big house.
. Of course he was replaced by Rob Blagojevitch  who is...that's right, also in the big house.
. And  Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. resigned a couple of weeks ago.  That is because he is fighting being sent to...that's right, the  big house.
. The Land of Lincoln , where our governors make  our license plates.

But you know what? As long as they  keep providing entitlements to the population of Chicago ,  nothing is going to change, except the state will go broke  before the country does.

"Any man who thinks he can be happy  and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him;  better take a closer look at the American Indian."
 
 
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Vance G
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 12:43:28 PM »

How does one refute that--but bumble bee will certainly give it a go.  We have a lawless administration that is aping Chicago.  God help us because the Republicans are too gutless to curb these dogs.
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deknow
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 07:31:04 AM »

Claim #1:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.

I'm virtually certain that this claim comes out of the "death spiral" Forbes article.  This distorted paraphrase includes everyone working for state and local government, and anyone that is recieving retirement benefits from having done so.

So now anyone with a pension is on "welfare"?

deknow
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gdoten
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »

Claim #1:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.

I'm virtually certain that this claim comes out of the "death spiral" Forbes article.  This distorted paraphrase includes everyone working for state and local government, and anyone that is recieving retirement benefits from having done so.

So now anyone with a pension is on "welfare"?

deknow

From the article you cite, the terms are well defined: “A taker is someone who draws money from the government, as an employee, pensioner or welfare recipient. A maker is someone gainfully employed in the private sector.”

The point is clear. The takers outnumber the makers so there's not enough makers to fund the takers. Heck, it doesn't even require "takers > makes" for this formula to fail badly, as it has in this D paradise.

And all these decades I though Mass. was the D (takers) paradise. Don't fret, I'm sure it's rated at least 2nd place.
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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »

And if the gov. was ran like the private sector, where only those needed were kept on the payroll, how many gov. employees would be let go?  Just guessing, but I would say over half. Those, I would consider on welfare now. Hard distinction to make, I agree, but that is still only one small "maybe" from the whole OP. I still say there is a major problem in Chicago.
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »

Errr, I'm not the one that is making the claim that a retired firefighter or police officer with a pension is a welfare recipient....which is the claim that Idee is making:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
I'm just as disgusted by how the public sector is usually run as anyone....but retired heros (injured or not) who put their life on the line for others, and who are getting what they are contractually entitled
to are not welfare recipients, and not "takers".
Next up, those lazy leaches of society known as "disabled veterans" and "active duty soldiers" become the target of mindless right wing scapegoating.
Give me a break.

deknow
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gdoten
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2013, 03:26:13 PM »

Errr, I'm not the one that is making the claim that a retired firefighter or police officer with a pension is a welfare recipient....which is the claim that Idee is making:
Quote
There are more people on Welfare in Illinois than there  are people working.
I'm just as disgusted by how the public sector is usually run as anyone....but retired heros (injured or not) who put their life on the line for others, and who are getting what they are contractually entitled
to are not welfare recipients, and not "takers".
Next up, those lazy leaches of society known as "disabled veterans" and "active duty soldiers" become the target of mindless right wing scapegoating.
Give me a break.

deknow


No one has said that there are no takers that don't deserve what they get, either here or in the article you site; in fact, the article directly states the opposite of what you claim. D's simply cannot ever consider spending less, even when faced with the fact that takers > makers only leads to cronyism and bankruptcy. Notwithstanding your straw man arguments, of course this is somehow all the fault of the R's, and not the D's that created this situation!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 04:53:26 PM by gdoten » Logged

-glenn-
iddee
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

First, any pension that was not paid into, in my opinion, is welfare.

Second, any ex soldier who is not disabled in or by their service, who collects benefits are both takers and criminals, unless it is a retirement pension.  ""See First""

Vets who were disabled in or by the service collect because the service was liable.
Active soldiers do their day's work for a day's pay, which, I may add, is very low. Mine was below minimum wage at the time I was in.
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 05:50:42 PM »

First, any pension that was not paid into, in my opinion, is welfare.

Second, any ex soldier who is not disabled in or by their service, who collects benefits are both takers and criminals, unless it is a retirement pension.  ""See First""

Vets who were disabled in or by the service collect because the service was liable.
Active soldiers do their day's work for a day's pay, which, I may add, is very low. Mine was below minimum wage at the time I was in.

Service members pay nothing into their pension.  They also get paid two to three times more than what the same person on the economy gets paid. Everyone seems to forget about bha.
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iddee
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 07:48:43 PM »

My base pay was 76.00 per month. My BHA was 96.00 per month.
I don't think that was quite 2 to 3 times civilian pay.

I know it isn't the same today, but I'm guessing it would still compare as about the same percentage.


""Service members pay nothing into their pension.""

And I agree they are takers when they retire. The unless was for the criminal aspect. The retirees are authorized. Any other able bodied vet does not legally get a monthly check.
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 08:10:16 PM »

Times have changed. A Sargent, usually in their mid 20s takes home close to 60k a year, in some areas more. That is post tax income. A Sargent has almost no responsibility. When you factor in the untaxable income and insurance, that is near a gross of 90k per year.  This is a non combat billet, which is what 90 percent of the billets are.  The average household gross salary in the US is about 40 k.
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Modenacart
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 08:12:28 PM »

I work with a lot of retired senior chiefs and master Sargents and we work directly with the military. They refer to today's military as a huge welfare program.
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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 09:07:25 PM »

Looks more like base 29,000 and with benefits 54,000 to me.
And, unless it has changed, it is pre tax, unless in a combat zone.

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.html
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 09:46:27 PM »

Looks more like base 29,000 and with benefits 54,000 to me.
And, unless it has changed, it is pre tax, unless in a combat zone.

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.html


If you read the link it is post tax dollars (take hime pay) and it doesn't account for the really sweet 20 year retirement.  54k is on the low end and that is near 60k.
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Modenacart
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »

How many jobs are there for a 24 year old with no college education can you take home post taxes near that.  Hell, how many with college educations.
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iddee
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2013, 10:01:55 PM »

NO, the benefits are post tax. The base is pre tax. Also, 60 total is a long way from 60 base and 90+ total.

I do agree, tho, all volunteer makes a lot more than draftees.
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »

NO, the benefits are post tax. The base is pre tax. Also, 60 total is a long way from 60 base and 90+ total.

I do agree, tho, all volunteer makes a lot more than draftees.
the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket, so yes, take home. Add the 5k to pay insurance, the 10k people pay in taxes, the 20k you would need to put in your 401k to get the same retirement at 20 years. Sounds a lot like 90k to me.
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iddee
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »

""the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket,""

How do you figure that? And, if they signed up in certain states, they also pay state income tax on the base, even if based overseas.

As for 401k, with interest rates at less than 1% and add in a few losses over the years, why not say 200,000 each year to get the same retirement? Not that much more ridiculous than 20,000.
That's also forgetting that a vast number of civilian companies offer retirement, many after 10 years, with increasing payments for more years served.

This is not exactly staying on topic, so I think we should cut it off here. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.



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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2013, 10:52:57 PM »

""the 29k base puts you in the no tax bracket,""

How do you figure that? And, if they signed up in certain states, they also pay state income tax on the base, even if based overseas.

As for 401k, with interest rates at less than 1% and add in a few losses over the years, why not say 200,000 each year to get the same retirement? Not that much more ridiculous than 20,000.
That's also forgetting that a vast number of civilian companies offer retirement, many after 10 years, with increasing payments for more years served.

This is not exactly staying on topic, so I think we should cut it off here. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.
i recommend seeing an accountant for retirement numbers to get paid for another 40 to 50 years after working 20 years. It takes a huge investment during the 20 years.

Most companies are offering no pension or pensions funded by the employee.  Far differ t than the military. Both secretary Gates and Hagel have stated military compensation are way out if line.
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »

It’s so refreshing to see somebody who actually understands economics for a change. applause  Yep, you’re looking at about a million bucks of SOMEBODYS (ie tax payers) capital to generate the yearly pension for each retiree.  NOBODY gets pensions like that anymore in private industry unless they’re execs.  The unions used to get those kind of bennies out of the auto makers, but we know how that turned out......  The government employees are the NEW union for the 21st century. laugh  And who said the Republicans don't love Welfare  laugh  They're just very particular about WHO they give our money too  laugh  
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 06:53:12 AM »

Keep in mind federal civil servants don't get compensated the same as military. That 22 to 24 year old Sargent is making about the same as a GS-13 when you look at take home.
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deknow
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 10:49:14 AM »

No one has said that there are no takers that don't deserve what they get, either here or in the article you site; in fact, the article directly states the opposite of what you claim. D's simply cannot ever consider spending less, even when faced with the fact that takers > makers only leads to cronyism and bankruptcy. Notwithstanding your straw man arguments, of course this is somehow all the fault of the R's, and not the D's that created this situation!

....but "takers" isn't the word used to describe these people in the OP.  These "takers" (like a firefighter) are referred to as "welfare recipients".  If you want to find straw men, start there.

If someone collecting a govt pension is a "taker", what is a govt employee who is paying into a pension that they are not yet collecting on?  They are doing something more than working to support themselves in the moment.

deknow
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Vance G
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 03:14:51 PM »

I spent 24 years in an occupation where someone could tell me to go do something unsafe, deadly or dirty any time the need arose.  I got to work one whole hell of a lot of 80-100 hour weeks for Sams Air Circus.  Go to work at 0230 at -40 F actual to drive 100 miles to a missle site on icy roads.  Work hard in the the wind accompanying that cold to get frozen metal lubricated by congealed grease to give and let you get into the hardened structure.  Shovel snow for literally hours while it blew back in behind you so you could position your vehicles.  I worked within inches of nuclear bombs on a regular basis and was forbidden from measuring the radiation I was exposed to.  Asbestos was everywhere among other fun substances.  Stress of achieving expected perfection constant.  If you didn't measure up, you didn't make rank.  If you didn't suck up, you didn't make rank.  HELL!   I had it easy I only got shot at once and that was by Indians on a reservation three hundred miles from Wounded knee when Russell Means was shooting FBI.  They weren't even serious just shooting over us!  Bullets do make a noise as they break the sound barrier going by.  I was not even at the sharp end of the stick getting shot at in the sand!   

So you smirking libs go ahead and  place my career with the career clots in any number of tail chasing beauacracies designed to keep people from being productive and supply Democrat voters.  Or the teachers, currently turning us into a non competitive third world nation.  Talk about sweet featherbeaded pensions working only part of the year.  I think I earned my sweet pension which I bled and froze and sweated for. I get around 2K a month fully taxable federal and state.   What a fat hog I stuck in the rectum.   
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 04:25:45 PM »

It may have been like that before but it isn't now. We have navy shops that have no buffer for engines and the chief s response is they are five days a week for eight hours. That includes PT. No overtime.
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2013, 04:27:38 PM »

To make rank is time in grade until staff Sargent, so it is not busting ass.
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Vance G
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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2013, 07:54:21 PM »

Sergeant is the spelling beetle.  Fact remains, the military can tell you to go die tomorrow and when we get a president who has what Bradley Manning wants to get cut off, it will need to change back fairly rapidly.  The pay is a lot better than when I served.  Two years after I retired, the pay had gone up enough that a new retiree was getting more pay in retirement than I got when active duty.  You must have failed to make it and got out to think you know so much and respect the service so little.
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2013, 08:57:40 PM »

Quote
That 22 to 24 year old Sargent is making about the same as a GS-13 when you look at take home.


OMG bluebee has a buddy  evil

can't say what the army does.  they have lower standards than the other services.  for the navy, past E3 you test for every advancement and you must have good PRT and eval scores.  now...pay....i don't know many civilian jobs where you are on call 24/7, can be sent anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat, may not see your family for months at a time, can't quit (most of the time), and people might shoot at you.  never mind the living conditions in may places, and no extra pay for all that...unless they ARE shooting at you.  take your GS-13 and offer him all of that for the same pay and i bet he won't jump at it. 

i don't know why the leftist always want to go off about fire fighters and police.  that's just dumb and a distraction from what we do have an issue with.  but...they know that.

fact is, if you keep insisting that we support the majority of the people with welfare, healthcare, food stamps, etc. there won't be any money for firefighters of police.  yes, the takers are out numbering the makers.  yes there are, in many places, to many government employees.  yes, in many places they are over paid..less in salary than in benefits, retirement, overtime, etc.  but that would be sustainable if you all didn't insist that we give away phones, homes, and food, to anyone who was to lazy to get out there and find their own.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2013, 09:08:52 PM »

Wow, I am a libertarian and I believe in math and facts.

It takes 25 guys to support one guy that carries a rifle and fights. For every 100 guys that have no risk of being shot at, there is four that does. I am all for the guy that is getting shot at getting paid more but not the 25 that have no risk.

The reality is military personal are federal employees, just like civil servants. You could easily cut the military in half by farming out support and save billions in the process. Let military do what the are good at
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iddee
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« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2013, 09:13:00 PM »

Vance, Kathy, old Samuel's quote is becoming more true every day.


“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

― Mark Twain
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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2013, 09:53:01 PM »

Quote
The reality is military personal are federal employees, just like civil servants. You could easily cut the military in half by farming out support and save billions in the process. Let military do what the are good at

you may not know this, but we have.  that's how clinton pulled his illusion with the whole "peace dividend" thing.  it's not working. 

i know a lot of people who call themselves libertarians.  most are ron paul people who only heard that part of what he said that supported what they already wanted.  legal drugs being a big draw....

most who call themselves libertarians are liberals who want....legal drugs.  a few special folks are anarchists.  they are loads of fun.  i'll take you word that you are really a libertarian until you can prove yourself wrong  grin


Quote
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

i know, but i have been a pretty good girl the last couple of weeks.  didn't want you all to think i was sick or something!

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2013, 10:33:26 PM »

Libertarians tend to steal votes from republicans not liberals.  Also the tea party movement started as a libertarian moment until the republicans took it and ran.

Pesky facts...
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2013, 10:57:52 PM »

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Libertarians tend to steal votes from republicans not liberals.

that's true.  shall we thank Ron Paul for 4 more years of Obama?

Quote
  Also the tea party movement started as a libertarian moment until the republicans took it and ran

not really.  it started as a movement against more taxes, obamacare, and government over-reach.  these are traditional conservative positions.  there are republicans who ran as conservatives, thus running in concert with the tea party agenda.  i don't see that as a problem, do you?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 08:38:10 AM »

Modenacart;  I've had the impression that the tea party was a thorn in the flesh for the republican hierarchy and most republicans.

I use to vote for the lessor of two evils (which meant I still voted for evil) but now I can't tell them apart.

I heard a pretty truthful statement somewhere; Every time the democrats throw a pass toward the en zone the republicans intercept it and run it in for them.

I will either vote for a libertarian candidate or not at all. I'm so sick of the other two. I always viewed Ron Paul as crazy, but he's making more sense every day or the others are making less.
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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 09:24:30 AM »

Wrong post.
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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 09:31:49 AM »

Modenacart;  I've had the impression that the tea party was a thorn in the flesh for the republican hierarchy and most republicans.

I use to vote for the lessor of two evils (which meant I still voted for evil) but now I can't tell them apart.

I heard a pretty truthful statement somewhere; Every time the democrats throw a pass toward the en zone the republicans intercept it and run it in for them.

I will either vote for a libertarian candidate or not at all. I'm so sick of the other two.

The tea party was a huge thorn, that is why the republican leadership took it and ran.

I voted for Gary Johnson last election. He seemed to be the guy that believed in personal freedom/rights the most.

If you really break down what Obama and Bush accomplished in office and not what they say in public or what the tv says, it is very similar, outside of obamacare.  Ben Stein was asked who should be the republican nominee for the last election he said "Obama." 

The problem is most people see politics as a sport, win at all cost, who cares what the facts are. This is evident in the name calling you see on this board.
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Modenacart
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« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 09:35:44 AM »

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Libertarians tend to steal votes from republicans not liberals.

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  Also the tea party movement started as a libertarian moment until the republicans took it and ran

not really.  it started as a movement against more taxes, obamacare, and government over-reach.  these are traditional conservative positions.

Very libertarian ideas.
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Moots
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« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 09:44:55 AM »


...If you really break down what Obama and Bush accomplished in office and not what they say in public or what the tv says, it is very similar, outside of obamacare....  


lau LMAO! "very similar, outside of obamacare"....That's like saying April 15th, 1865 was very similar for Mrs. Lincoln to any other night at the theater, outside of the assassination.   KIND OF A SIGNIFICANT AND IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE!  grin

And while I fully realize that both parties are far from perfect, it doesn't mean there aren't still huge and important differences....Look to Supreme Court appointments if nothing else!
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« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 11:48:18 AM »

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Very libertarian ideas.

and very conservative ideas. 

Ron Paul might have been the guy once, but he's now a squeaky little cult leader interested only in being stroked and followed.

i'm happy that you all feel good about voting your conscience...or whatever you think you did.  as we go though the second term of obama, you all hang on real tight to the notion that you didn't throw your vote away and contribute to the further destruction of the county. 

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And while I fully realize that both parties are far from perfect, it doesn't mean there aren't still huge and important differences....Look to Supreme Court appointments if nothing else!

exactly.  and all the federal judges and alphabet agency regulations and laws made by presidential fiat......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 12:49:16 PM »

    As long as we are comparing..... There is no comparison!    When was the last time we saw ANY president, who constantly campaigned? Obama is at this moment running around the country, (mostly college campuses) pointing the finger at others for policies he put into effect!!! Policies which are destroying America.
    Sorry for getting a little off subject, but you guys were starting to get off subject anyways.   Smiley
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Modenacart
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« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2013, 02:18:10 PM »

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Very libertarian ideas.

and very conservative ideas. 


My mistake, I thought libertarians were liberal

By the way, Ron Paul doesn't represent all libertarians.
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« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 03:53:46 PM »

Fox Creek; It seems to be a rare thing when we stay on topic Wink

(that includes me)
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« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 03:59:52 PM »

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My mistake, I thought libertarians were liberal

true libertarians are liberal in the old sense of the word.  many, if not most of the libertarians i have tripped over in the last 10 years or so, are not really libertarians. they are wanna be anarchists and confused pot smokers.  true conservatives are more libertarian than most libertarians. 

confused yet? 
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By the way, Ron Paul doesn't represent all libertarians.

is should hope not.  to me, his son strikes the right balance.  he is someone i could vote for. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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