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Author Topic: Fall feeding  (Read 1354 times)
Oblio13
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« on: August 11, 2013, 11:46:35 AM »

A month ago my hives were pretty heavy, but now there's almost no honey in them, so I've already started trying to put some weight on them for winter. I'd prefer to feed just dry sugar, but they don't store that, so that leaves syrup. Frame feeders and baggies seem to leak more often then not, and I end up with drowned bees, syrup running out the bottom, and sometimes a robbing frenzy.

Lately I've been using a chicken waterer, with stones in the trough part to give the bees a place to land. Very few bees have drowned, they come to it in such numbers that the yellow jackets get crowded out and aren't a problem, and it doesn't seem to have set off any robbing (I put it on the opposite side of my house from the hives). I also like that I don't have to disrupt the hives at all in order to refill it. And I like watching them feed, too.

I keep reading that feeding may cause swarming, but I haven't read why. Is it simply because they backfill the brood chamber? If so, can't an empty frame be inserted between two brood frames every now and then? And the filled frames in the box above checker-boarded?
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Hemlock
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 02:56:10 PM »

research 'Fall Feeding' on the forum.  you will get some good info.

a simple solution to feeding and not starting robbing is to use a Hive Top Feeder
these come as inverted buckets and several types of tray
some tray types allow bees access to syrup but not the beek.  these can be refilled without exposure to bees or disturbing the bees
outside open feeders can start the robbing behavior in bees


hives can and do become honey bound.  bees can swarm as a result of being honey bound.  as a beek you need to monitor for that.  if you see a hive becoming honey bound stop feeding it.
however, in fall the brood nest shrinks and the bees store more honey for winter.  its a balance but most bees will stop taking syrup (or honey) when they need to.

if they have to many honey frames then, yes, you can pull a couple and replace them with drawn empties.  just make sure they're using all of the brood nest first.

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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 03:41:25 PM »

A month ago my hives were pretty heavy,


Now is is not winter feeding time. Now idea is build up hives that they have a good winter cluster.

Just now in Finland bees rear their last brood cycle. These will make a winter cluster bees. It is quite hot wether still. It is dry and pollen are few on fields. Hives have good pollen stores. Summer bees die with good speed. Difficult to get hives into winter size. after 2 weeks they are ready to be feeded.

I am extracting summer's catch.  - This is method "catch and start selling".



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Oblio13
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »

More feeding questions:

I have one hive (four 8-frame medium boxes) and three nucs in my yard. We live on a peninsula, so there's no forage in three directions. There's also usually a nectar dearth in August. There's Goldenrod blooming near here, but I'm only seeing bumblebees on it, not honeybees.

None of the hives are busy at all if I don't feed them. About one bee arriving every 2-4 seconds.

If I put a feeder a hundred yards away, all the hives become very busy, bringing in pollen (pale yellow and light orange, can't figure out what it is) as well as the syrup.

When the feed runs out, the hives become very quiet again.

So,

1. Is this indicative of a nectar dearth?

2. My gut feeling is that the feeding is making the nucs think there's a flow on, and it's motivating them to raise brood, which is what I want them to do in preparation for winter. Does that sound plausible?

3. Bottom line: Should I be feeding? I just took a peek in one nuc. They have some stores, both capped and uncapped, but not a huge amount. The brood nest certainly isn't clogged.

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sc-bee
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 04:18:07 AM »

What do you call a nuc? How many frames/ size? If there is no flow, the bees are taking the feed,they are building comb and not crowding the queen, then feed.


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Oblio13
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 12:29:10 PM »

I just took an inventory and opened the brood nests and checkerboarded the stores while I was at it:

Nuc #1 is a two-box, five-frame medium with three frames of brood below and both capped and open stores.

Nuc #2 is a two-box, eight-frame medium with three frames of brood below and both capped and open stores.

Nuc #3 is a TBH with five deep frames of rather spotty brood and three frames of mostly open stores.

None of the brood nests were particularly backfilled, and they for sure aren't now.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2013, 12:48:56 AM »

A nuc is a hive in early development. A nuc is any hive less than 8 frames, normal hive sizes in USA 8 frame Garden hive and 10 frame American Standard hive.   A TBH is never a nuc but a full sized hive.
5 frame nucs are the most common and can be stacked to develop the hive quicker before transferring to a full sized hive.

Hive #1 is a nuc, Hive #2 is a 2 tier Garden hive, hive #3 is a TBH that is probably back filling the brood nest to process a late flow and will move the nectar out of the brood nest to the stores frames to cap it.  Hive #2 needs at least one more box if you expect to overwinter it.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2013, 07:09:15 AM »

Calling three medium frames of brood a 'garden hive' instead of a 'nucleus hive' seems like a distinction without a difference to me. Isn't what's in the box more important than what the box is? An 8-frame medium is the same volume as a 5-frame deep. Anyway, now that you know the exact size and condition of the little hives, what do you think about my questions?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:38:25 AM by Oblio13 » Logged
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2013, 09:19:06 PM »

Calling three medium frames of brood a 'garden hive' instead of a 'nucleus hive' seems like a distinction without a difference to me. Isn't what's in the box more important than what the box is? An 8-frame medium is the same volume as a 5-frame deep. Anyway, now that you know the exact size and condition of the little hives, what do you think about my questions?

I'm sorry I read that as 3 medium boxes.  But if it is in an 8 frame box it is still a hive not a nuc.
There used to be 3 different sizes of bee hives above a 5 frame nuc, volume is immaterial, those were:
Canadian Imperial = 12 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Standard = 10 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Garden = 8 frames regardless of hive body depth
Those are the modern hive sizes, anything less than those frame widths, regardless of volume or depth, is a nuclei hive.  That's the tradition of American Beekeeping, keeping the names straight helps in clarifying any discussion.  Understand?

Quote
Lately I've been using a chicken waterer, with stones in the trough part to give the bees a place to land. Very few bees have drowned, they come to it in such numbers that the yellow jackets get crowded out and aren't a problem, and it doesn't seem to have set off any robbing (I put it on the opposite side of my house from the hives). I also like that I don't have to disrupt the hives at all in order to refill it. And I like watching them feed, too.
 

That is why you are not experiencing any robbing.  Too properly feed with a community feeder it is necessary to remove the feeder some distance from the bee yard--at least 50 feet, the further the better.  Using a remote community feeder will also stop robbing that is going on within an apiary saving all but the weakest hive that set off the robbing.

The best feeder I know of is one my brother and I devised.   We constructed an inner top and then drilled 12 holes 2 7/8 inches in diameter in 3 rows of 4.  Drill standard jar lids with 1/64 holes (12-24) per lid. Fill 12 Quart or pint jars with simple syrup, screw on the lids, and place in the 2 7/8 holes.  Cover with medium super.
You can feed up to 3 gallons at once with a feeder that is pretty much robber proof.  This feeder platform can also be used to feed fondant and pollen substitute by using 1/2 pint jelly jars so feeding can be done at anytime of the year without having to disrupt the bees within the hive.
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Roy Coates
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 09:34:43 PM »

Kelly hive top feeder with super https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333733303333&grouped=1 is what I decided to use at the out yard (frequent fillings not convenient), I use inverted jars inside an empty super at the home yard(frequent fillings convenient) both I feel are great options to feed the bees and avoid robbing/pests
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 06:14:01 PM by Roy Coates » Logged
Oblio13
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 03:56:23 PM »

... But if it is in an 8 frame box it is still a hive not a nuc.
There used to be 3 different sizes of bee hives above a 5 frame nuc, volume is immaterial, those were:
Canadian Imperial = 12 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Standard = 10 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Garden = 8 frames regardless of hive body depth
Those are the modern hive sizes, anything less than those frame widths, regardless of volume or depth, is a nuclei hive.  That's the tradition of American Beekeeping, keeping the names straight helps in clarifying any discussion.  Understand?...

Well, no.

There used to be (and still are) hundreds of sizes of hives.

Nowhere else have I seen a specific size requirement for a nuc box. Never heard of "a nuclei hive", either.

Nucs, or nucleus hives, seem to be defined simply as small colonies. When I buy nucs from Kirk Webster, they come in ten-frame deeps. Seems to me they could also be in a hollow log or an old TV.

But whether you call little hives nucs or splits or American Garden hives or whatever, thanks for addressing the question.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 08:02:16 PM by Oblio13 » Logged
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 11:42:52 PM »

... But if it is in an 8 frame box it is still a hive not a nuc.
There used to be 3 different sizes of bee hives above a 5 frame nuc, volume is immaterial, those were:
Canadian Imperial = 12 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Standard = 10 frames regardless of hive body depth
American Garden = 8 frames regardless of hive body depth
Those are the modern hive sizes, anything less than those frame widths, regardless of volume or depth, is a nuclei hive.  That's the tradition of American Beekeeping, keeping the names straight helps in clarifying any discussion.  Understand?...

Well, no.

There used to be (and still are) hundreds of sizes of hives.

Nowhere else have I seen a specific size requirement for a nuc box. Never heard of "a nuclei hive", either.

Nucs, or nucleus hives, seem to be defined simply as small colonies. When I buy nucs from Kirk Webster, they come in ten-frame deeps. Seems to me they could also be in a hollow log or an old TV.

But whether you call little hives nucs or splits or American Garden hives or whatever, thanks for addressing the question.

There is much confusion on what is what in modern beekeeping, part of this is due to one area of the country using one term to describe something and another area using the same term to describe something else.  A 10 frame deep is a hive not a nuc....this according to L. L. Langstroth who originated the term nuclei (nuc) hive.  A Gum hive (wood) or Skep (Woven) is always a hive, never a nuc. 
A small colony can be housed in either a hive or a nuc, a small colony in a hive might be too big to be housed in a nuc.
If we all use the same terms to describe the same thing we tend to communicate much better.   Clarity always makes a difference.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 12:30:33 PM »

One last point (my minor in English coming out here), and then you can have the last word on this, too:

"Nuclei" is the plural of "nucleus". A hive has only one nucleus. So one hive would be "a nucleus hive". Two or more would be "nucleus hives". "Nuclei" isn't appropriate in either case.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 02:17:24 PM »

If you are saying "nucleus hives" yes, that would be correct.  Nucleus is, in this case, an adjective.  If you are just calling it a "nucleus" rather than a "nucleus hive" then "nucleaus" is a noun and more than one would be some "nuclei".  Or since we have shortened and anglicized it, "nucs".
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 10:27:43 PM »

One last point (my minor in English coming out here), and then you can have the last word on this, too:

"Nuclei" is the plural of "nucleus". A hive has only one nucleus. So one hive would be "a nucleus hive". Two or more would be "nucleus hives". "Nuclei" isn't appropriate in either case.
If you are saying "nucleus hives" yes, that would be correct.  Nucleus is, in this case, an adjective.  If you are just calling it a "nucleus" rather than a "nucleus hive" then "nucleaus" is a noun and more than one would be some "nuclei".  Or since we have shortened and anglicized it, "nucs".

As I stated, Dr. L. L. Langstroth was the first person to use the term Nuclei hive to define a single starter hive of less than normal (Garden or American Standard) size, it is also a term taught to me by my primary mentor, Mr. Albert Gersch (1873-1965), my secondary mentor, Mr. Clayton Turnipseed (1885-1975) and was a common term prior to WWII, it was the term still fairly common in 1959 when I started beekeeping and only impertinent upstarts used the term nuc.
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Oblio13
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2013, 12:09:13 PM »

If you are saying "nucleus hives" yes, that would be correct.  Nucleus is, in this case, an adjective.  If you are just calling it a "nucleus" rather than a "nucleus hive" then "nucleaus" is a noun and more than one would be some "nuclei".  Or since we have shortened and anglicized it, "nucs".


Yes. One nucleus, two nuclei. One nucleus hive, two nucleus hives.
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